Not intending to suggest that you don't have experience, just mentioning what experience I've had as people tend to make statements on here where you can't tell if it's hearsay, what they've read, their research, or actual experience. I find it helps to know where people are coming from and why they say what they do so you engage with th…
Not intending to suggest that you don't have experience, just mentioning what experience I've had as people tend to make statements on here where you can't tell if it's hearsay, what they've read, their research, or actual experience. I find it helps to know where people are coming from and why they say what they do so you engage with them more fully.
Maybe (and I'm no expert) the problem in many Muslim countries is that they're not democracies and the people have no power. I also had wonderful experience with the people, but they often would only speak off the record where no could overhear, and said they wouldn't dare protest or stand up for human rights because they were afraid for themselves and their family. I think we have been very lucky in the west to live in a democracy where we could speak openly, but I fear the direction things are going when they're making it a hate crime to say certain things in the UK and Canada, and apparently the FBI is now visiting people about social media posts.
Yes I agree about them not being democracies and the people having limited power. I tend to think that Islam isn’t really compatible with the kind of democracy/free republics we have in western countries. I think it requires a certain amount of authoritarianism to function, from what I have seen and experienced.
Penalties for conversion and for other religions proselytizing can be steep and the religious leaders’ opinions and edicts carry a lot more sway.
Your point about the freedom of speech issues in many of our countries is well taken, but that is always a danger we have to guard against. And it’s really nothing to do with Christians or Muslims, with the possible exception that the former are not considered to be in a protected class and the latter are.
I don’t really see Muslims as showing fervent support for freedom of speech or freedom of religion and I am not sure those are even compatible with their world view, generally speaking. I mean, obviously in this country they benefit from it so would be for it, but if we were controlled by Muslims would they care? I haven’t seen an adequately reassuring response to that question as yet.
I wish I could say that my own friends, family, and colleagues are big supporters of freedom of speech, but their support seems to fall apart when it comes to people holding views different from their own. It often shocks me.
So I wonder if there is a minority in every society that sees how important freedom of speech is, versus a majority who are afraid to buck the system or are too wrapped up in their own lives to care. It's a question and I don't have answers myself.
I'm an old dog. My blood pressure can't take the stress, and I've been wrong so many times about things I was adamant about, that I think I'm finally learning to discuss rather than argue. It's my new trick. But I also appreciate the same from you!
I think that’s called wisdom 😉😊 That’s what I love about the commenters in this Substack, we can have actual discussions and it’s so much more enjoyable that way! It’s a real exchange of ideas.
I have some who are and some who aren’t really (the “conditional” ones who always make exceptions for things they personally disagree with or find abhorrent). But you make some valid points. Lots of people seem to only support freedoms when they themselves benefit from them. And don’t really care about the principles.
And the people “too wrapped up in their own lives to care” disturb me 😕 There are many of those 😕
Not intending to suggest that you don't have experience, just mentioning what experience I've had as people tend to make statements on here where you can't tell if it's hearsay, what they've read, their research, or actual experience. I find it helps to know where people are coming from and why they say what they do so you engage with them more fully.
Maybe (and I'm no expert) the problem in many Muslim countries is that they're not democracies and the people have no power. I also had wonderful experience with the people, but they often would only speak off the record where no could overhear, and said they wouldn't dare protest or stand up for human rights because they were afraid for themselves and their family. I think we have been very lucky in the west to live in a democracy where we could speak openly, but I fear the direction things are going when they're making it a hate crime to say certain things in the UK and Canada, and apparently the FBI is now visiting people about social media posts.
Yes I agree about them not being democracies and the people having limited power. I tend to think that Islam isn’t really compatible with the kind of democracy/free republics we have in western countries. I think it requires a certain amount of authoritarianism to function, from what I have seen and experienced.
Penalties for conversion and for other religions proselytizing can be steep and the religious leaders’ opinions and edicts carry a lot more sway.
Your point about the freedom of speech issues in many of our countries is well taken, but that is always a danger we have to guard against. And it’s really nothing to do with Christians or Muslims, with the possible exception that the former are not considered to be in a protected class and the latter are.
I don’t really see Muslims as showing fervent support for freedom of speech or freedom of religion and I am not sure those are even compatible with their world view, generally speaking. I mean, obviously in this country they benefit from it so would be for it, but if we were controlled by Muslims would they care? I haven’t seen an adequately reassuring response to that question as yet.
I wish I could say that my own friends, family, and colleagues are big supporters of freedom of speech, but their support seems to fall apart when it comes to people holding views different from their own. It often shocks me.
So I wonder if there is a minority in every society that sees how important freedom of speech is, versus a majority who are afraid to buck the system or are too wrapped up in their own lives to care. It's a question and I don't have answers myself.
And thank you for the pleasant, civil and thought-provoking discussion!
I'm an old dog. My blood pressure can't take the stress, and I've been wrong so many times about things I was adamant about, that I think I'm finally learning to discuss rather than argue. It's my new trick. But I also appreciate the same from you!
I think that’s called wisdom 😉😊 That’s what I love about the commenters in this Substack, we can have actual discussions and it’s so much more enjoyable that way! It’s a real exchange of ideas.
I have some who are and some who aren’t really (the “conditional” ones who always make exceptions for things they personally disagree with or find abhorrent). But you make some valid points. Lots of people seem to only support freedoms when they themselves benefit from them. And don’t really care about the principles.
And the people “too wrapped up in their own lives to care” disturb me 😕 There are many of those 😕