350 Comments
User's avatar
⭠ Return to thread
FedUpInOR's avatar

The average monthly social security benefit in 2025 is expected to be $1976 per month. Multiply that by 12 months in a year and 18.9 M fraudulent people (likely more but these are only the ones over 100) and you get $448,157,000,000. You’re right, this much money is simply chump change and not worth pursuing (sarcasm). Every person involved in making the decision that amount of money wasn’t worth pursuing better be fired immediately if not yesterday.

Expand full comment
Annie's avatar

Apparently social security really isn't underfunded. They just need to get rid of the fraud and all will be good to go.

Expand full comment
Roger Beal's avatar

But but but doing that would end the Dems' repeated pre-election mantra, "The Republicans want to cancel your social security!!"

Expand full comment
Reasonable Horses's avatar

We can't take away their mantra! Let's just fine tune it. "The Republicans want to cancel dead people's social security!!"

Expand full comment
RunningLogic's avatar

Yes, I like that!! 😆😁

Expand full comment
Kathy's avatar

It is so important for us to speak back about the subject. This is the number one thing that is used to frighten people into voting Democrat.

Expand full comment
79SmithW60's avatar

Exactly Roger. Dems never want to actually "solve" any issue, just use it is a sledgehammer against their opposition. If they actually solved a real problem, they would put themselves out of a 'job', i.e. their gravy train system. War on "poverty" is the best example (how many trillions have we spent LBJ's war began? and there is more poverty now than before), but you also through in all the other undeclared wars Dems and RINOs like to wage like the "war on drugs", which only strengthened the State's power and reduces the individual's freedom.

Expand full comment
Stacy's avatar

We can get Machiavellian, too. We say nothing, keep them on the books long enough to pay off the national debt, and in the meantime, build enough political capital to shrug off lies like that.

Expand full comment
Paul Paulson's avatar

Employers pay 6.2% social security tax. Employees pay another 6.2% to SS on top of that. Self-employed individuals pay the full 12.4%. The amounts we pay into this fraudulent system are non-trivial to say the LEAST...

As this new admin, with DOGE taking the lead, expose decades of fraud, we're going to continue to see the Overton Window shift MASSIVELY (i.e. "Do we even HAVE any gold in Fort Knox?"). The tides are turning to where more people will understand that it's not really Left vs Right - it's We The People Vs. The Deep State.

What a time to be alive - LFG.🔥🔥🔥

Expand full comment
InquizitiveOne's avatar

Yeah things are going to get very interesting when we learn how much gold is actually in Fort Knox

Expand full comment
KC & the Sunshine's avatar

We need to place bets. Idk whether it’s closer to two bars bc they’ve squandered it all away or it’s closer to trillions bc they’re hoarding it all until

they vaccinate us into

oblivion.

Expand full comment
Dave's avatar

Clarification

Employees pay the full 12.4% as well

Yes I know the law decrees that your employer shall pay half.

I'm talking about the actual reality of the situation.

As far as employer is concerned, the $10 an hour you are 'paid' might as well be $10.62 an hour. More in truth because of other gov imposed costs, but you get the idea.

Expand full comment
Deanna Chambers's avatar

Ahem…it’s 15%

Expand full comment
AM Schimberg's avatar

Years and years of fraud that there's no getting back. 😡 At the very least get it right moving forward!

Expand full comment
Not Me's avatar

Perhaps start prosecuting some of these fraudsters and the others will quit.

Expand full comment
Granny Annie's avatar

Perhaps? Prosecution, and subsequent seizure of assets, of these fraudsters could get at least some of it back and should be mandatory AND a priority.

Expand full comment
Peace's avatar

Can it be clawed back from people who received it fraudulently? I know, already spent, but some sort of accountability needs to happen,

Expand full comment
Deanna Chambers's avatar

How about prosecuting the people who have been fraudulently receiving the social security of their dead relatives/friends??

Expand full comment
Lisa Ca's avatar

RIGHT?!!!!

Expand full comment
Kathi M's avatar

Great point!

Expand full comment
liz's avatar

we deserve a RAISE!

Expand full comment
Billy Bob's avatar

Hopefully DOGE can track down where all that money is actually going.

Expand full comment
Freedom Fox's avatar

I had a roommate in 2017 from India. She was in medical school. I began noticing mail for her from Social Security every month, same time.

I never opened it or asked her about it, she was a good roommate. But it never sat right with me. Why would someone on a student visa be getting monthly (or biweekly, I forget) mail from SSA? I don't know that it was benefits, but what else could it be?

DOGE should poke around that tree, is Social Security being used to pay foreigners to come to the US and get an education, even for expensive medical school, that isn't even available to US citizens? Is it not just the work visa issue of taking high skill jobs from Americans, but also paying for the higher education to train them, through Social Security no less?!?! A trust fund with a lock box that Americans pay into for their retirements, separate from general fund, ostensibly?

DOGE?

Expand full comment
Robin Greer's avatar

SSA was actually never set up to be a separate fund. It is raided all of the time. There is no lock on the account SSA. The lie they sold the American public was that it would be like a retirement account. I can't remember which politician disclosed this information, but it was eye-opening.

Expand full comment
Kitkat's avatar

What about the money from those who died before receiving any or all of *their invested money* and no survivors were “eligible” to receive it “due to age”? If that money had been put into a private retirement account instead, it would be an inheritance for their families at a better interest rate most likely.

Both of my parents passed before they were "eligible" and all that money went back into the "general fund". No one in our family saw it.

Expand full comment
AM Schimberg's avatar

And yet somehow it's still underfunded? 🤔

Expand full comment
RunningLogic's avatar

Yeah something’s definitely not right about all of this 😡

Expand full comment
Sharon Beautiful Evening's avatar

That has been the "lying mantra" of politicos since the 1950's--IT'S A RABID LIE!!

Expand full comment
rolandttg's avatar

Yes. Imagine 12 % of your pay being invested every year. That's what rankles me when some otherwise good conservatives call SS an entitlement. No it's not. We paid into it all of our lives, unlike the first batch of recipients.

Expand full comment
RunningLogic's avatar

Yeah I agree, it isn’t an entitlement when people are forced by the government to give up their money and then get it back later. This should be considered separately from welfare programs.

Expand full comment
Lisa Ca's avatar

That is terribly sad Kitkat

Expand full comment
LamedVav disavows all vaxes.'s avatar

Yes, we’d be much better off with our own private accounts. I want my money back with interest and then “burn it down.”

Expand full comment
Freedom Fox's avatar

Of course. We know this. But that's how it's billed. The lockbox reference written with AlGore's voice in my head for comedic effect :)

Expand full comment
Robin Greer's avatar

And who could forget that Al Gore "invented the internet" and his other major grift for Climate Change. What a LIAR and Self Serving man!

Expand full comment
Freedom Fox's avatar

SNL's skewering of AlGore's lockbox:

(40-second clip)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hC2poPYv--4

Expand full comment
MarshaLouise's avatar

That was good!

Expand full comment
Tiny basket of deplorable's avatar

Freedom. I can still hear weird Al say the lock box thing. Lying sack of ….

Expand full comment
Freedom Fox's avatar

Impossible to hear or type the word without hearing him...or the impressionist of him saying it.

Expand full comment
Fre'd Bennett, MAHA's avatar

Exactly. It is not a separated account, it is a Ponzi scheme where incoming funds are used to pay those who've reached a certain age.

It's not our money. It's a complete scam. In fact, you'd be prosecuted if you tried to do it yourself.

Ask Bernie Madoff.

Expand full comment
Chris's avatar

It was a separate fund, up until Carter started the raid.

Expand full comment
CitizenA's avatar

Jimmy Carter did so much harm to our country in so many areas. The Panama Canal, the DOE, etc. Almost as much damage as Joe Biden.

Expand full comment
rolandttg's avatar

I always thought he was a well meaning naive but decent politically incompetent clown. I was so wrong. He was a globalist through and through who did horrible damage to this country.

Expand full comment
CMCM's avatar

Carter was also a major player in facilitating the downfall of the Shah of Iran and letting the religious fanatics take over in 1979.

Expand full comment
79SmithW60's avatar

LBJ in 1968...

Expand full comment
Chris's avatar

I stand corrected.

Expand full comment
79SmithW60's avatar

Unfortunately, another reason why LBJ is on the top five worst/most destructive presidents of all time, is his raiding of the SS system, and putting the SS funding into the general fund.

It was always a Ponzi scheme from the beginning, with the system relying on having enough replacement workers to pay for those on their SS benefits. Add to that the growth of the system from a simple retirement system to what it is now, then throw in the debt generating by Congress and we have a complete mess.

Expand full comment
Leo's avatar

Yup, it is all just creative bookkeeping.

Expand full comment
CMCM's avatar

There's a good reason why they were so resistant to the idea of saving to your OWN retirement account at least as an alternative to paying into SS.

Expand full comment
CindyArizona's avatar

The government steals from you for 40 years. They hope you die before you collect one cent of that money they’ve stolen and now we find out that not only do our children benefit from the thousands and thousands of dollars that we had forcibly taken from us, but they’re giving it to millions and millions of people who shouldn’t be getting it. It’s f**king infuriating. I’m thrilled with what DOGE is uncovering but I’m so angry that we’ve been lied to and ripped off for our entire lives. I honestly cannot recall the last time. I have been this angry on a daily basis.

Expand full comment
Dena's avatar

They not only “hope” you die before collecting benefits, they actively create environments - created pandemics, poisoned addictive food supplies, deliberately poisoning our skies - etc., that are designed to shorten your life. And let’s not forget the child vaccine scheme designed to shorten or at the very least weaken our children’s lives.

Expand full comment
Sharon Beautiful Evening's avatar

My prayer is that DOGE totally OBLITERATES the cushy, non-performing bureaucratic positions and those parasites that occupied those 'jobs' will have to do what you and I have had to do our ENTIRE LIVES. HIT THE PAVEMENT AND FIND ANOTHER JOB!! They will have a HUGE awakening experience!

Expand full comment
Danielle's avatar

Not sure if you have unemployment benefits in the US?, but anyone fired should not be eligible for unemployment assistance.

Expand full comment
Sharon Beautiful Evening's avatar

Oh sure - unemployment is the domain of the STATES not the Feds. If you are 'laid off' or considered 'unessential to the operation' of a business...THEN you CAN collect unemployment - usually for at least (6) months after termination from your previous employment. Our state of PA extends that unemployment benefit for up to ONE YEAR - the last (6) months are at "half rate" of the FIRST (6) month period.

Expand full comment
Danielle's avatar

Thanks for the reply. Was not sure how your system works.

Cheers

Expand full comment
Sharon Beautiful Evening's avatar

Cheers to you as well, Danielle!

Expand full comment
Debra Jackson's avatar

May I suggest, for your soul, that you not be angry on a daily basis, but thankful the Lord is revealing the truth. "And the truth will set you free" (from the captivity of lies and sin). The truth informs and gives us the resolve to look past the narrative of what they want us to believe, to what is really going on. I do not trust our government. It is not working for our wellbeing. It is funding regime changes in parts of the world we haven't heard of for the benefit of the politicians (kickbacks) and their donors.

Expand full comment
Karmy's avatar

So true Debra! I am shocked at the scope of the corruption but I don’t get angry about it because I can’t do anything to change it. Anger is a negative emotion. I trust in God that He has His plan and this revelation is part of that plan. Praise be to God that He has given us leaders who are showing us what has been going on. We need to turn back to God and give Him our allegiance and He will set things right with His justice.

Expand full comment
Freedom Fox's avatar

I know your words to be true. Yet righteous anger does often well up inside me despite knowing this. It is one of the greatest struggles in my personal relationship with God. Trusting his plan without allowing righteous anger to fill the moments of doubt. There's a bit of St. Michael in me, a fighter for God. That can be fueled by righteous anger. I know I'm not as faithful a servant of God as his example is to hold others accountable without holding myself accountable. But the struggle is real.

Expand full comment
Granny Annie's avatar

YES! 100% me, too!

Expand full comment
Leo's avatar
Feb 17Edited

Freedom, what helps me with anger, is to realize it is over, in the past. Done. Doing that equates to living in the past, which is to be living in an illusion. Being caught up emotionally, carrying around old memories, is a gravitational pull away from...freedom.

Expand full comment
LamedVav disavows all vaxes.'s avatar

But it’s not over. They’re continuing to steal.

Expand full comment
Leo's avatar

So, apparently all your anger is not stopping them from stealing.

Expand full comment
CMCM's avatar

About 20 years ago, talk show host Michael Medvid had a huge interest in history (maybe he was originally a history teacher or some such). He wrote a book and also a DVD series on the subject of God's Hand on America. When I look at things now, I can't help but remember what he said about seemingly amazing and almost unexplainable great things over the last 200 years that saved this country, things as unlikely as Trump almost being killed but turning his head at just the right moment. Medved's view was that God did have a hand in protecting America from time to time in our history, because we are the country that was needed to rescue the world from its idiocy.

Expand full comment
Lynn46's avatar

I'm with you. In my case my husband passed when I was 62 and I was still working. I waited 4 years to start collecting and because my husbands income was higher for years I took survivors benefits. I will never see a dime of what the govment took from me for over 40 yrs as I stayed home when the kids were little for 10 yrs and had lower benefits by a few hundred. I did an estimate at one point and checked SS and over the years they collected somewhere around 75K from me. Could sure use that now. The govment should pay out what we paid in in situations like mine. Now finding out they are paying out to fraudulent accounts it really pisses me off.

Expand full comment
J Boss's avatar

SSA will send statements that include what you paid in. It could shock you. The total very likely is more than 1.5 times a year's salary if you worked without interruption.

Expand full comment
RSgva's avatar

Yes, like they also encourage you to take it later.

Expand full comment
rolandttg's avatar

I still give the chances of my satanic communist jab happy nasty piece of work older sister in law seeing the light as somewhere around zero.

Expand full comment
MarshaLouise's avatar

Drinking time, Cindy!

Expand full comment
CMCM's avatar

When SS was set up, life expectancy was a lot lower than it is now, and they undoubtedly calculated that a great many people would never collect, or at least, they wouldn't live enough enough to get much money.

Expand full comment
Janet's avatar

I read thousands of Indians over the age of 65 are here on student visas.

Expand full comment
MaryAnn's avatar

I worked with international students in higher ed. When they were hired as a ‘student employee’ they had to apply for a SS# in order to receive a paycheck in the college’s system.

I shudder to think how many of those former student employees are now receiving SS benefits just by virtue of having had a number but never paying into the SS system.

Expand full comment
CMCM's avatar

At the very least, seems like the SS system would show almost no work history and very low earnings, so how could the payment be much. In fact, would they even meet the quarters worked requirement?

Expand full comment
Cathy's avatar

And taking a spot in medical school from an American student who speaks English!!

Expand full comment
Freedom Fox's avatar

I have many Indian friends like my old roommate. Very nice people. But they are typically very obedient. And don't rock the boat. Especially when they know their place on the boat is tenuous as an immigrant on visa. Placing Indian doctors into the medical system ensures a very obedient medical system. That forces everyone, including asthmatics into masks, injecting every Big Pharma concoction into every arm, dangerously and unnecessarily irradiates us, tests, probes, perform every procedure - necessary or not - they are directed to perform. And sets the stage for a medical system that's already very compromised to repeat this very ugly history:

Why did so many German doctors join the Nazi Party early?

International Journal of Law and Psychiatry, October 3, 2012

https://sci-hub.se/http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.ijlp.2012.09.022

"During the Weimar Republic in the mid-twentieth century, more than half of all German physicians became early joiners of the Nazi Party, surpassing the party enrollments of all other professions. From early on, the German Medical Society played the most instrumental role in the Nazi medical program, beginning with the marginalization of Jewish physicians, proceeding to coerced “experimentation,” “euthanization,” and sterilization, and culminating in genocide via the medicalization of mass murder of Jews and others caricatured and demonized by Nazi ideology. Given the medical oath to “do no harm,” many postwar ethical analyses have strained to make sense of these seemingly paradoxical atrocities. Why did physicians act in such a manner? Yet few have tried to explain the self-selected Nazi enrollment of such an overwhelming proportion of the German Medical Society in the first place."

FF - Is this the reason so many Indians are populating our medical schools and are becoming overrepresented in our medical system today? That "investment" by the Social Security administration to bring down costs of the baby boomer population bomb hitting benefit eligibility age? Hmmm?

Expand full comment
MarshaLouise's avatar

Hmmm?!

Expand full comment
Steph's avatar

Now you can report that on the newly created DOGE SS site.

Expand full comment
Freedom Fox's avatar

There is the little issue of Musk supporting the visa programs for high skill workers, his DOGE initiative poking around high skill student visas receiving Social Security benefits? An objectivity concern.

Expand full comment
John of Oregon Fame's avatar

Steph, THAT'what makes me mad. Spitting mad!

Expand full comment
Steph's avatar

I believe so. I am banned from X for some unknown reason but, someone shared that in a group i belong to.

Expand full comment
Lisa Ca's avatar

Social security site? Please share said doge site.

Expand full comment
Steph's avatar

U.S.

@DOGE

launches 13 new accounts to report waste, fraud & abuse in the Government:

-

@DOGE_GSA

-

@DOGE_STATE

-

@DOGE_SBA

-

@DOGE_DOI

-

@DOGE_HUD

-

@DOGE_NPS

-

@DOGE_SSA

-

@DOGE_OMB

-

@DOGE_ED

-

@DOGE_OPM

-

@DOGE_DOJ

-

@DOGE_NASA

-

@DOGE_VA

-

@DOGE_USDA

-

@DOGE_FAA

-

@DOGE_DOT

-

@DOGE_EPA

-

@DOGE_DOD

-

@DOGE_FDA

Expand full comment
kittynana's avatar

@Steph- is this strictly on X?

Expand full comment
Peace's avatar

I found the SSA Twitter account, but can't see any posts - just a huge list of people to follow.

Expand full comment
Sheri veley's avatar

Eko. I absolutely love this persons writing. Follow on substack Eko Loves You.

Expand full comment
MarshaLouise's avatar

This was a delicious read. As one commenter noted, he was grinning like a lunatic while reading through it. Of course, I felt the same way, kind of the way I enjoy reading C & C. Thanks for this , CindyArizona.

Expand full comment
Freedom Fox's avatar

Yep, I remember reading that a few weeks ago.

Expand full comment
Kenpowoman's avatar

Don't forget that USAID paid for Al Qaeda terrorist Anwar Al Awlaki's college tuition.... how many others were there just like him?

https://www.bizpacreview.com/2025/02/11/bombshell-documents-confirm-usaid-funded-al-qaeda-terrorist-anwar-al-awlakis-college-tuition-1521951/

Expand full comment
Debra Jackson's avatar

I like the idea of phasing out SS. Give the people their money to invest. If they fail to wisely invest their money they will have to work until they die. No "social safety net." It's above my skill set to figure out how to do this, but this joke of SS has to stop.

Expand full comment
Freedom Fox's avatar

People who didn't invest wisely existed before Social Security. They didn't line the streets in their filth and wait to die. The role of churches in community and REAL civic volunteerism, philanthropy helped them in a much bigger way than today. That's what would happen.

We humans when left to our own devices are not selfish, cruel people who will turn away those in need. Despite what the big government "social safety net" advocates portray us as. We do a better job of charity than government ever does or could. To do what you suggest means surviving the onslaught of shrill screams, emotional blackmail and angry tirades about how selfish and cruel we are to try. We and our leaders we support must survive the onslaught and push through it.

And in doing so we must "become the change we seek." Stealing an Obamaism that is appropriate. We can't demand cuts to these "social safety nets" funded by government without challenging ourselves to step in the gap and provide for the less fortunate among us. Our individual participation and contributions to churches and civic volunteerism must match our words. Many already do. Means do more. The churches and civic organizations, philanthropies that waste charitable funds on pronouns and importing more needy should be cast aside, their funding streams dried up. Ones that harken back to days of true community and civic participation will step up and thrive. Just sayin'.

Expand full comment
Debra Jackson's avatar

You’re correct in that the churches helped people in need. We also took care of our aging relatives. But today, many young adults abandon their elderly parents and believe the government will take care of them. I believe if we returned to real charity (giving from our hearts) instead of having money confiscated from us by government (gov safety nets, SS, disability,etc) we as a society would be better off.

Expand full comment
Freedom Fox's avatar

Bam! Exactly right. Traveling outside the US, to Latin America and many other places with different cultures the first thing I noticed was the cohesion of the family units I don't see in the US. Three generations may live under the same roof.

A typical situation would be grandparents caring for the babies while the parents go to work during the day. Not low-wage day care workers who may or may not give two hoots about the children in their care like in the US.

Then as the children age and become teenagers, young adults the parents will still be working during the day, but roles flip between oldest and youngest, the children help the grandparents navigate life, help them go out, care for, help feed. Not low-wage senior care workers who may or may not give two hoots about the seniors in their care like in the US.

I was raised as I was raised in the US to value my independence and freedom to explore the world without the obligations of caring for my family. It's hard to shift that paradigm in a society once its become set. But thinking about it logically the Latin American (and others) paradigm is healthier, more cost effective and more loving than what we have in the US today. The fact that we pay others we often don't even know to care for our most precious and important people in our lives is quite insane and somewhat depraved. I get that some people don't have family relations that could support the model I describe. But those are the exception, not the norm. Yet in the US the model is the norm, not the exception even for families with relations that are strong. Societal pressures have normalized a very fractured and unhealthy family model that's unsustainable.

Expand full comment
79SmithW60's avatar

@FF, regarding day care, the Dems and complicit RINOs push to have that day care. Same with "pre-school", which is just an opportunity for the government schools to get their tentacles into the kids earlier and earlier... almost as if a lot of this was planned...

You are 100% right in your analysis and observations.

Expand full comment
MarshaLouise's avatar

My pet peeve!

Expand full comment
MarshaLouise's avatar

100% - It bothers me to see mothers rush their babies out to pre-school while they are at home. These are terrible, unloving parents, and I don’t care who reads this and disagrees. That’s healthy, bonding time lost for babies. No wonder we have problems these days.

Expand full comment
MarshaLouise's avatar

Many have abandoned churches, too, including would-be pastors.

Expand full comment
LamedVav disavows all vaxes.'s avatar

I agree with you, Debra. We definitely would be much better off - on many levels.

Expand full comment
Valerie's avatar

There is a DOGE account on X and they are actively asking for input into areas that they need to consider for an audit. You should definitely submit your story about the Indian student.

Expand full comment
Sharon Beautiful Evening's avatar

I have opined for years that the SSA should be 'advised' by a board of NORMAL CITIZENS - like an "ombudsmen" structure. That would make it much more lucrative for retirees and 'safe' from thievery and misappropriation. Of course...that will NEVER happen...but it SHOULD!

Expand full comment
CeeMcG's avatar

Post this on X to the DOGE page!

https://x.com/doge/status/1891288881674240070

Expand full comment
Freedom Fox's avatar

I'm not on X, nor planning to be. I think there's another non-social media site that has the same, though.

Expand full comment
Joanne Shannon's avatar

I had to look it up on the internet and found this email address. In my opinion, Zillow is trying to manipulate the real estate market by having a new category that represents Climate. They are working with a group called FIrst Street, which recently has a headline: 12th National Risk Assessment: Property Prices in Peril estimates $1.4 trillion reduction in unadjusted real estate value due to climate-related risks.

Expand full comment
Freedom Fox's avatar

Please do tell more about this Zillow thing. I've read about other previous shenanigans they've been exposed doing, but the climate one is new to me.

MLS, the realtor inventory listing service, has been helping manipulate markets for over 25 years as I've been aware of, many exposes about, but all put forth as isolated incidents rectified, no pattern. BS. Active collaboration with governments, mostly local, to underreport inventory, resulting in artificial higher prices, supply-demand formula tinkering. Taxing authorities rely on higher valuations to fund their largesse and purchase of voter loyalty. Market corrections, decreasing values put crimp in budgets based on property tax mill levies. No incentive to stop MLS market manipulation.

Trying to extrapolate the Zillow market manipulation impact on that paradigm? Governments obviously won't want that devaluation for budgetary reasons explained above. so what's the angle being worked? Climate fear porn to package up into reports by analysts "educating" local leaders about the price of 'inaction' on climate in their communities? Justification for 15-minute cities, climate lockdowns, restrictions on movement, carbon taxation? There's definitely an agenda. We can speculate as I've done. Hmmm?

Expand full comment
Joanne Shannon's avatar

It’s something new I have noticed taking place slowly over time unti…BOOM….the above headline suddenly appears on a listing when you open it up to look at the details. Why?….to destroy the equity in homes, which I believe is the #1 investment for the majority of our population. It’s going to be pretty difficult to MAGA, when the majority of the population will have nothing “and you’ll like it”.

Expand full comment
Freedom Fox's avatar

I get the whole "you'll own nothing and be happy" thing. BlackRock, Vanguard rush in and scoop up valuable property at bargain basement prices.

But that conflicts with what I describe has happened with local governments that rely on higher and higher property values. Which is a very real driver of the insane one-way real estate market the past 20+ years, ignoring compelling evidence that the understating inventory does. Enough to be criminal. Ignored. Because, property tax revenues, slush funds, payoff political supporters.

So there's two very real cross-currents clashing in this dynamic. They can't keep annual local budgets running on printed money like federal budgets are. They can only afford a very short term down turn, temporary budget cuts. Long term cuts hurts their reelection chances. Unless there's a backroom conduit of money to the local governments and/or political ambitions to help offset the political damage that deep long term budget cuts results in, are unavoidable with lower property values, I don't see local officials going along with it. Will the backroom conduit end up being front door, "climate control" revenues from carbon taxes, fees on the business enterprises that BlackRock and Vanguard own they willingly pay in order to bottom feed at the same time home prices go down?

Just trying to map this out. There's many moving parts that interplay.

Expand full comment
Taiga Rohrer's avatar

You are likely correct on Zillow, I do know about First Street, and have looked at their modeling, particularly regarding wildfire, it is atrocious - worse than junk. Looking at a city like St. George Utah, shows them at the 98 percentile for wildfire risk, which is absurd (Mostly bare ground to low desert shrub around the outskirts). But they count risk as being even with 12 miles of past fires, and fire modeled using climate change models. Climate change models, the leftists tools to extract wealth from the people to protect them from the boogieman. The models are producing exactly the results they want, and First Street is one of those totally not sketchy well connected NGO's "The U.S. Treasury, the Federal Housing Finance Agency, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, and all 12 Federal Reserve Banks are among the government clients that use First Street's data". It calls to the statement "98% of scientists agree with whoever is funding them".

Expand full comment
Bgagnon's avatar

Lock box … what a scam!

Expand full comment
jmsmithmd's avatar

Send it to their website for an inquiry.

Expand full comment
Lisa Ca's avatar

Wow!

Expand full comment
WP William's avatar

Swiss Bank Accounts? Bahamas?

Expand full comment
Roger Beal's avatar

Bullion ... the gold kind, not the little beef soup cubes. Kept anywhere other than on the thieves' own real estate.

Expand full comment
Joseph Kaplan's avatar

Fill up the jails

Expand full comment
Lisa Gonsalves's avatar

Jails are also a tremendous cost to taxpayers. That’s not an ideal solution.

Expand full comment
Abiding Dude's avatar

Bukele of El Salvador made us a GREAT offer... he will take our prisoners and charge only a very reasonable fee...

And their treatment will be far more appropriate to their crimes!

Expand full comment
Dr Linda's avatar

Well, maybe they could go to work cleaning up forests? Something useful? Cost effective? Jail, prison is not a vacation

Expand full comment
Beckadee's avatar

Let's put them under the jail then. But they got to go.

Expand full comment
dan herrick's avatar

I understand there is open space in the DC Jail.

Expand full comment
LamedVav disavows all vaxes.'s avatar

Lisa, I think jail is the ideal solution. We have plenty of money to pay for the jails. If we call back some of the USAID money they’re stealing.

Expand full comment
william howard's avatar

a job for the Buyden 87,000 IRS agents

Expand full comment
Pat Wetzel's avatar

No, just fire them. They can learn to code.

Expand full comment
RunningLogic's avatar

Or work in the fields or be gardeners 😑

Expand full comment
Billy Bob's avatar

Yeah and they can carry along all the guns and ammo that was bought for them.

Expand full comment
Teresa Parmenter's avatar

Good joke 😂

Expand full comment
Inverted Pyramid's avatar

Tracking it is easy.

Go back to checks as the form of payment. When the checks are scanned there is a stoppage created for all checks for people older than ____ age.

For those who are not able to make it to the bank, their Guardian(s) are required to provide proper documentation to deposit and/or cash checks.

Is it cumbersome? Maybe but prior to our current system, checks were used successfully. Overall, this will put the responsibility on the banks... where it should be.

Expand full comment
Peace's avatar

Sending SS payment as checks would also reveal who, exactly, is cashing these checks. Don't put immediate Stop on the checks - use them to find out who is receiving these benefits illegitimately.

Expand full comment
MaryAnn's avatar

My SS check is direct deposit. I think they do that to minimize theft 🤣😂🤣

Expand full comment
CMCM's avatar

I thought most were done that way now....but maybe not. One way or the other, the SS records would have the deposit bank account info and if a check, they could determine if/when a check was deposited or cashed.

Expand full comment
Cheryl Schroeder's avatar

Bingo. Thank God Elon and his geniuses figured that out. We ( patriots) have it all. The money trail will show all the connections down the road. Pray for these people doing the work of We The People.

Expand full comment
Adriana J. Garces's avatar

Amen! In prayer I remain, while firmly in reality. :)

Expand full comment
PrayerWarrior's avatar

That would be huge to follow that fraudulent money

Who cashed those checks? are the dead people voting too ?

Expand full comment
Lisa Ca's avatar

That would be amazing. And wouldn’t it be funny if it was going to Pelosi, Schumer, Graham etc…..

Expand full comment
MarshaLouise's avatar

I’d be surprised if it isn’t.

Expand full comment
RunningLogic's avatar

Same.

Expand full comment
KBH Geronimo's avatar

And then, they're going to need more lawyers. Hopefully!

Expand full comment
Gotmoxie's avatar

I had a friend who told me about how she and her financial planner were scamming SSA disability. She owned a lovely townhouse and drove an Audi. Nice work, huh?

Expand full comment
RunningLogic's avatar

That really burns me up 😡

Expand full comment
striketheroot's avatar

When DOGE finally pries open that lockbox it will discover a bizillion IOUs from our "representatives" in the "United States Corporation" (ie the District of Columbia). We the people are under a different corporation to wit:the "United States of America Corporation." And from there it's corporations all the way down to your local dog catcher. Now remind me what it was Mr Jefferson said about corporations a looong time ago? Thank the Lord we no longer have "warlords" we have corporations instead.

Expand full comment
Adriana J. Garces's avatar

Yes. Then divert it all back to us, taxpayers whose hard earned cash has been collecting residual interests on the dollar. Because it wasn’t theirs to claim from any of our wages, we should never have been subject to any empire- foreign or domestic. WE tell our govs what we want and need.

Expand full comment
Dave aka Geezermann's avatar

I would love to be getting HALF of that average amount each month, which I am not. Maybe the billions going to dead people can be divvy'd up and shared amongst the bottom half of the recipients. Then I'd be able to pay my property taxes.

Expand full comment
My Favorite Things's avatar

States (especially Florida) need to abolish property taxes for lower income senior citizens. It truly is an injustice that Seniors in the last stage in their life have to worry about property taxes. I wish more seniors would start writing and getting active about this issue.

Expand full comment
Donna in MO's avatar

This is the argument we are getting in MO, which did pass legislation last year allowing for 65+ to apply for a freeze. Problem is, that just shifts the tax burden to the rest of us, and makes our taxes higher to make up for it. Ours went up $1200 last year. 65% of our property tax bill goes to the school district and their spending is out of control. Rather than freezing or eliminating for seniors (who are NOT all indigent, BTW) it makes a lot more sense to reign in spending, and look for a better way to fund local governments. Oh and all the big developers get property tax breaks in my city too. And yet people keep re-electing the same idiots.

Expand full comment
Dave aka Geezermann's avatar

In my county in Illinois they do have a property tax freeze for seniors, and one must qualify for it. If a senior here has plenty of income, they do not get the freeze. I have a relative who has a small farm and a couple houses here and she pays far more, like double, in property taxes than I get in Social Security in a full year.

My position on property taxes is that if a government can continually assess a tax on your property, then you never own it, they own it.

Expand full comment
Donna in MO's avatar

I agree - I am much more in favor of a different way of funding and getting rid of the property tax altogether. The tax breaks for millionaire developers really pisses me off. My mom lives in an assisted living place that got a break on property tax, and since she no longer owns a vehicle, pays zero property tax. And yet the facility gets the benefits of what the tax helps pay for - fire, police, EMT's, snow removal on the roads, etc. I am not sure what to replace it with but I also know that we need a DOGE in our city, county and school district as they waste way too much.

Expand full comment
RunningLogic's avatar

And schools are such sacred cows, if you try to address any waste, people get alll up in arms “but what about the chiiiillldren??!” 🙄

Expand full comment
Lisa Ca's avatar

Well put- sacred cows.

Expand full comment
Bandit's avatar

Yes! DOGE needs to do all states governments next! Get all the graft out of them, too.

Expand full comment
R1ghtTh1nk's avatar

A little off topic but ... take a close look at the protein level of your mother's diet. Institutional food is some of the least nutritious out there, whether schools, hospitals, assisted living facilities, etc.

Expand full comment
Debra Jackson's avatar

I was in and out of the hospital last year for a four month period. The food they had on the menu was garbage! and in a hospital where you would expect healthy, nutritious food. I needed the calories desperately, and had to eat so there is that. But unhealthy, unappetizing food nonetheless.

Expand full comment
Betsy Frost's avatar

I recently spent a few days at a hospital with a loved one. The food was atrocious: unappetizing, bland and not nutritious. They stuck him on a "heart healthy" diet regime with low salt and no sugar (wouldn't even give him packets for tea) but allowed poisonous sugar substitutes! And he needed salt as upon admission his electrolytes were low. He is healthy though on statins (a whole other issue as his cholesterol is actually too low) and there was no other reason for the dietary restriction. They truly are trying to kill off the older generation.

Expand full comment
Debra Jackson's avatar

Salt is so important! My electrolytes were so off! They gave me sodium pills and I started salting the heck out of all my food so I could get off the pills. Potassium and magnesium were so low I had to be hospitalized for that with a potassium chloride drip which was so painful I didn’t think I could endure it. I’m not a moaner but I cried out to the Lord to help me through it. He did. I now use good salt and am eating normally. I do supplement with an electrolyte drink daily to keep me healthy. The “medical system” doesn’t give two bits about nutrition. What we eat is so important to our health. Cholesterol is another story and statins are known to cause dementia. They (medical “experts) lowered the cholesterol levels to get us all on statins. Cholesterol is important for brain function. I eat healthy fats and farm eggs. All my dad’s mother’s family (12 of them) were raised on raw milk and eggs and bacon. All had what the doctors said was high cholesterol. The “sickly” one lived to 99 and all the others passed 100. My grandmother lived to 107. The last living sibling, Auntie Anna, will soon celebrate her 102 birthday this April, Lord willing. She is still sharp but says she is slowing down. I don’t get excited about cholesterol. It’s just another scare tactic to get us perpetually on pharmaceuticals. Blessings to you and your family.

Expand full comment
RunningLogic's avatar

Yep another one of their scams 😡

Expand full comment
MarshaLouise's avatar

I believe strongly that you are correct. In a facility where a brother-in-law resides, last week, he witnessed a man having a stroke and helped him try to get food into his mouth. When he advised a worker what happened and suggested calling a doctor, she replied, “Oh, we don’t do that.” Imagine!

Expand full comment
Bandit's avatar

That's the end point. They don't want us owning property.

Expand full comment
AM Schimberg's avatar

Amen! Property tax is so unjust! I can't believe more people aren't aware of that.

Expand full comment
taxpayer's avatar

Why is property tax more unjust than income tax, sales tax, other taxes?

Expand full comment
My Favorite Things's avatar

Because the government can steal your home legally if you don’t pay them. You can avoid other taxes to some degree.

Expand full comment
LamedVav disavows all vaxes.'s avatar

There are way too many taxes on too many things, and all of the taxes are way too high.

Expand full comment
T Kosse's avatar

Where I live in DuPage County, Illinois, seniors need to have an AGI of less than $65,000 to qualify for the freeze. And then, it is not a freeze of their property taxes but only a freeze of their assessment. Their property taxes can still go up depending on the county multiplier--which almost invariably goes up.

Expand full comment
CMCM's avatar

Exactly! If a senior who has owned his property for 50 years suddenly can't pay the property tax, he could lose his home. That is criminal.

Expand full comment
Robin Greer's avatar

This song lyric comes to mind "One way or another, I'm gonna find ya. I'm gonna get ya, get ya, get ya, get ya one way or another."

Expand full comment
shayne's avatar

Here in Shawnee Co. in KS, the county/city discovered if they raise the value of our properties every year they can raise the property taxes. This is a new thing, raising values yearly. We have an old house that needs a lot of work, what they've valued it for is utterly outrageous.

Expand full comment
Donna in MO's avatar

Absolutely, went through the same thing in Jackson County, MO - massive value increases. We do have the Hancock Amendment in MO which limits the windfall to taxing jurisdictions to 5% for existing property (new construction is exempt) but that is 5 % in aggregate and they use sketchy math IMHO. Jurisdictions are supposed to roll back the levy, but they still manage to put levy rate increases on the ballot from time to time (oh it's only $68 a year for the average home and look at this shiny object) that the gullible voters approve!?! Ours went up 43% in the last re-assessment. We did not appeal, as our property had been under-valued and saw little chance of winning, but there were 50,000+ appeals and 2 years later, they are still hearing cases. And even 5% per year adds up over time.

Expand full comment
Dave aka Geezermann's avatar

Same happened here last year.

Expand full comment
shayne's avatar

It's outrageous Donna. The other thing I'm seeing here, is homes are being bought up then fixed up, but remain empty.

Expand full comment
Dr Linda's avatar

Agreed, I spoke to the inspector the last time he was out.

Expand full comment
Help Needed in KS's avatar

I've had to appeal my property taxes in Olathe (Kansas) each of the past 2 years. First time I won my appeal with the county, this last time I had to appeal to the State. I figure I'll be doing it again this year.

Expand full comment
Betsy Frost's avatar

And they managed to work around the KS state imposed windfall limits! It makes me so mad.

Expand full comment
Leo's avatar

Help Needed, What is the basis of your appeal re: property taxes?

Expand full comment
Help Needed in KS's avatar

Exactly like Donna said. For both appeals, I had a realtor runs some comps, ones that were more in line with my home. The County "ran the same play" each of the 2 years: they compared my single story, ranch style home to 2-story homes, with bigger square footage and in a different school district.

I received an email from USPS, showing what mail I would receive today or tomorrow and in it is the County's latest tax assessment. Here we go again, I'm sure !! Updates to follow.

Expand full comment
Donna in MO's avatar

In MO, people who appealed had a RE agent prepare a 'comps' analysis based on the correct time period, plus lots of photos (that could be uploaded with the appeal) of things that would decrease value (like foundation issues, age of roof, etc) and some had estimates for needed repairs as evidence. Several RE agent friends put in hundreds of hours running comps for people who were in danger of losing their homes due to the massive increases. It's a horrid mess, and hope voters remember all this when all of the county elected officials are on the ballot in 2026.

Expand full comment
taxpayer's avatar

So when you filed an appeal, what happened?

Expand full comment
shayne's avatar

They halted one year of raises. But my kids didn't get the same.

Expand full comment
Dr Linda's avatar

As a responsible Senior, I do pay my property taxes. They are above $1500 annually. They did make sure to increase taxes before this went into effect.

I, 100% agree we need to curb spending.

Expand full comment
MarshaLouise's avatar

Holy Smokes, my daughter’s taxes in Clarington, Ontario (4 bedroom house) are well in excess of $5000! You may have a good deal.

Expand full comment
Help Needed in KS's avatar

Oh dear heavens! I'll have to ask my brother what his taxes are. He is in Oshawa.

Expand full comment
Donna in MO's avatar

Ours is $3200, and that's not counting vehicles, which are old, so that one actually goes down every year until we bite the bullet and replace them.

Expand full comment
My Favorite Things's avatar

Donna,

I said abolish property taxes for low income seniors -not all. Senior women that lose their husbands often have to sell their homes. 🏠 This happened to a friend of mine whose husband, a Vietnam veteran that got cancer from agent orange, passed away. She couldn’t keep her home after he passed due to the loss of income and the costs of property taxes etc. She not only lost her husband, but the memories associated with the home and the community she loved. It is heartbreaking that any senior citizen has to live in the end stage of life facing such tragedy.

Expand full comment
RunningLogic's avatar

I agree. There has to be a better way.

Expand full comment
MarshaLouise's avatar

It is heartbreaking. 💔

Expand full comment
Donna in MO's avatar

It is sad, but my mom had to do the same - she could not keep up a house on an acre of land after my dad passed. Lived in an apartment for 8 years that she actually liked but in the end was a prison as she could no longer drive and most of her old friends from her church and neighborhood had passed or moved closer to kids, etc. She had one younger friend who brought her mail and newspaper every day, someone from her church visited once a week, and I came to see her and did her shopping 2-3 days a week, but she was a half hour away. (or longer depending on traffic, once after a fall, there was a major wreck and took me over an hour to get there) And never wanted to go anywhere, as 'its too much trouble' and scared of the Vid due to her CNN watching.

After a leg issue, she could no longer be alone, and after 6 months of sleeping on an air mattress at her place and using some mixed bag home health aides, my out of town sisters and I finally convinced her to move to an Assisted Living place 5 minutes from me in 2023. After sulking and being angry for a couple of months she is thriving. Making a lot of new friends, eating better, and a button on her wrist she can push for any reason. Goes to events at the place to get her out of her apt, and her outlook has improved 100%. Willing to get out occasionally and go to lunch, or a few events, although she is an introvert by nature so she still turns me down some. It's expensive, but the equity from the house, and IRA has been invested and RMDs supplement her pension and SS. Not saying for all, but there ARE some seniors who are better off selling and moving to a place with better quality of life than being basically shut-ins with little socialization. Talked to many of her 'neighbors' who admit they were overwhelmed with maintenance, paying bills, and having to hire out mowing, upkeep, or depend on family all the time, etc. and glad they sold, despite the initial resistance.

Expand full comment
Help Needed in KS's avatar

Donna, I'm glad you found a good home for your Mom and that she is enjoying life again.

Expand full comment
Donna in MO's avatar

Yes, and I don't have to sleep on an air mattress any more, lol. I've knocked a LOT of doors thru the years, and will sometimes end up chatting for 20-30 minutes with an elderly person 'still in their home' who is obviously really lonely, will tell me sad stories like I am the first person they have talked to this week. Change is hard, but sometimes, its for the best.

Expand full comment
MaryAnn's avatar

IL makes me prove income (below $65k) and age each year to get the freeze.

Expand full comment
Donna in MO's avatar

Yes, means-tested in MO also, and don’t quote me, haven’t followed it too closely, but think it is low 6 figures.

Expand full comment
Dianne Skagen McBeth's avatar

Maybe most seniors feel a duty to do their part as well as comply with the laws. What a thought! However, if waste wasn’t so profound, those taxes could be reduced significantly. The fraud being revealed: horrific.

Expand full comment
Robin Greer's avatar

The sheer magnitude of the fraud is mind blowing isn't it!

Expand full comment
Dr Linda's avatar

Yes

Expand full comment
Lisa Ca's avatar

Yes it is. even to a non- senior

Expand full comment
Scott's avatar

Many seniors want to do their part but also want to keep their home instead of losing it bc of property taxes.

The poster above advocated for changing the law, which is, in fact, following it.

Expand full comment
Donna in MO's avatar

YES! We pay more and more and get less and less.

Expand full comment
Based Florida Man's avatar

Gov D said this a couple of days ago. He's all for ending them.

"Property taxes are local, not state. So we’d need to do a constitutional amendment (requires 60% of voters to approve) to eliminate them (which I would support) or even to reform/lower them…

We should put the boldest amendment on the ballot that has a chance of getting that 60%…

I agree that taxing land/property is the more oppressive and ineffective form of taxation…"

https://x.com/GovRonDeSantis/status/1890183522037461393

Expand full comment
Based Florida Man's avatar

Here's how the UK does it: Property tax is due only once when closing the deal. No property tax is required beyond this point.

Expand full comment
shayne's avatar

Sadly their inheritance tax is outrageous.

Expand full comment
Pat Wetzel's avatar

I have no answer but I do think we need to think outside the box on this. Just look at the waste in the schools. When I lived in NV 65% of the school employees were administrators. What are our most basic common needs? Let individuals pay for what they want beyond that. How about returning the power of the purse to individual?

Expand full comment
Oregon Kathy's avatar

This is one thing I don’t get… Property taxes pay for a number of local services -the fire department, school district, library, etc. They are actually bonds that the citizens approved. Abolish property taxes and who pays for that? What am I missing?

Expand full comment
Based Florida Man's avatar

Any other way, such as consumption taxes.

The objective is to prevent someone who's paid off their home from being kicked out for not paying property tax.

Expand full comment
taxpayer's avatar

Why is a consumption tax better? The fact is, with devices such as reverse mortgages, an old person can retain their home and pay their taxes. Also, typically old people get a break on property tax already.

Expand full comment
Based Florida Man's avatar

People are getting kicked out of their homes that can't keep up with property taxes, so reverse mortgages isn't enough to save them (or they would have done it).

So we're simply talking about alternatives.

Expand full comment
Donna in MO's avatar

Yes, sales taxes are regressive. Not sure about alternatives, but I do think that we are kidding ourselves when we say we 'own' our homes. Don't pay Property Tax for 3 years and you will own nothing. And NOT be happy.

Expand full comment
Andrea's avatar

But how many zombies helped 'approve' that bond. Also, renters are voting but not paying. Perhaps only homeowners should be allowed to vote on a bond that affects their property taxes. As a teacher in California, it is not uncommon to see multiple families living with grandma in her home. I live in central CA, farmland, not LA or SF, so home prices are not astronomical.

Expand full comment
Peace's avatar

Good point about only homeowners should be allowed to vote onn a bond that affects their property taxes!

Expand full comment
Donna in MO's avatar

But renters ARE paying. It's baked into the rent. I have some friends who own a few investment properties and they actually HATE having to raise the rent, but taxes through the roof mean they are actually breaking even or worse if they don't pass at least some of the increase along. One is actually losing money renting to a long time elderly tenant who can't afford the increase, but he is definitely the exception.

Except for the apartment builders who have gotten property tax exemptions from our pathetic city council - 13 complexes in the past 4 years!! They are paying zero, except for the residents who do pay property taxes on their vehicles. It makes me furious. These folks get a pass while the rest of us pay through the nose.

Expand full comment
Oregon Kathy's avatar

Renters do pay. Any smart landlord increases his rents based on the increased cost of maintaining the property.

Expand full comment
RJ Rambler's avatar

Old ppl? Young ppl trying to raise a family... But aren't because they can't afford a wife? I'm kinda tired of the old ppl on a fixed income. Aren't we all. 🙄 How about fixing it so kids can take care of their families, parents?

Expand full comment
E.Z. Prine's avatar

You may not realize, but people put that income from their own paychecks aside through mandatory Social Security payments throughout their working lives, so that's their money the system collected on their behalf, not a handout from the government. They are entitled to those payments.

Also, many people do not have kids to take care of them, and many older people are now contributing to their communities in ways that keep the communities afloat. A lot of donated time and money that younger people can't afford to give.

So yes, fix the system to get rid of fake people stealing our tax dollars, but it can't be thrown out unless the government wishes to engage in massive theft from its own citizens who were required to pay all this money into the system their whole lives, and who paid enormous amounts in taxes beyond that. Fair is fair.

Expand full comment
MarshaLouise's avatar

I hope no one is suggesting that Social Security is a handout from the government. It’s true though that young people trying to pay for a home and raise little ones deserve breaks as much as we seniors do.

Expand full comment
Dr Linda's avatar

I don’t disagree. Maybe pitting each other against one another is not the way to look at this.

Most of us are on a Fixed income.

Expand full comment
Janet's avatar

Every one of my fellow seniors did just fine during Covid. Not sick. Out and about as much as we wanted within the constraints, one going to Florida for the winter and crabbing about DeSantis. We actually increased retirement income. While my SIL was on anti anxiety med and depressed because he couldn’t work at all, with my daughter dealing with that and a kid that decided she was trans, trying to make the mortgage payments. Then most oldies not caring if children suffered to save our old granny arses. Not all, of course. But never heard one make that argument against what was done to children. I’m still pissed about that.

Expand full comment
RunningLogic's avatar

Yeah I’m right with you there as far as what was done to children supposedly to save grandma (and teachers 🙄) from Covid. Not to mention the older people in care homes suffered needlessly because of that too—isolation and neglect 😞

Expand full comment
MarshaLouise's avatar

I’m with you.

Expand full comment
jmsmithmd's avatar

Tired of old people? Is your name Gates?

Expand full comment
Beckadee's avatar

You are tired of old ppl on a fixed income? What the hell are you talking about?

Expand full comment
My Favorite Things's avatar

RJ,

I feel more for old people that suffer, and lose their homes because they cannot afford property taxes -usually because their beloved spouse died.

Most older people don’t have much longer to live and it’s harder for them to start over.

I feel less for kids that had children before they were financially ready for them. They are able to cope with life’s hardships much easier than older people in the last stage of life.

Expand full comment
Cousin Clem's avatar

I don't know about that idea. Do not seniors make use of fire departments, roads, police, EMTs(probably more than most people for that) and plenty of other services? I could see lowering them but not abolishing them. In Florida, where there is a significant senior population, you'd be cutting the operating funds for local govts severely. A young person just getting started in their professional life with a kid on the way might say why am I paying property taxes to fund old people's wheel chair ramps, senior transportation services and the like when I can barely make ends meet? Just cause you're older doesn't mean you can now eschew responsibilities to the community.

Expand full comment
Oma's avatar

Because we “old people” have paid it “forward” and most have NEVER used anything that property taxes go for. We still drive over the same potholes as “young people.” Don’t mess with “old people” this early in the morning.

Expand full comment
Margaret Allison's avatar

OMA, good response! I worked 45 years in the medical field. I paid my property taxes. I used none of the above stated for old people! Hello!!

Expand full comment
Cousin Clem's avatar

You have a local gov't. Each of those people is paid by you. You have trash collection? Many municipalities pay for that with taxes. Same with road repair, snow clearing. I'm an old fart, as well and I see no problem with contributing to my community as long as it's reasonable. I left a high tax state because of wasteful taxation but don't expect a free ride just because I'm older now. Then we can start carving out other people from paying taxes because they work at home or their kids don't use public school and so on. When your house is on fire, you can tell them not to come because you don't want to pay for such frivilous nonsense.

Expand full comment
Oma's avatar

@Cousin Clem - “all government is local” I’ve heard. Yes, we pay...and we pay. Read my comment above to Organ Kathy. And if our house was on fire it would be because all of our preventive fire measures and common sense failed us and we would call. Your last sentence is certainly revealing many things...

Expand full comment
Oregon Kathy's avatar

You haven’t sent your child to the public schools, used the library, received the reassurance that you have a fire dept?

Expand full comment
RunningLogic's avatar

A lot of us (and I’m not that age yet but will be in about a decade or so) have NEVER used public schools even though that is generally the biggest cost. Either because we don’t have kids or sent them to private school or homeschooled.

Our local public school just built a ridiculously fancy state of the art pool and indoor athletic facility plus brand new tennis courts. There are multiple levels of administrators and coaches and assistant coaches for dozens of sports. There definitely needs to be a better way of budgeting and paying for these things.

There are also lots of places where you have to pay property taxes but there is no local police force and the fire department is all volunteer.

Expand full comment
Lisa Ca's avatar

I’m with you RL. This tax season burns me so much as we paid 4k plus for our girl to go to school meanwhile I pay property taxes which help fund public schools. I sure hope they at least get a tax writeoff for paying for my girl to go to school like you do for college loans. It burns me!

Expand full comment
RunningLogic's avatar

I used to somewhat (reluctantly) buy the argument that it contributed to the community to have educated citizens but with the clown shows in public schools right now, and so many schools with kids who are illiterate and can’t do basic math, my sympathies for that argument have evaporated.

Expand full comment
Dawn's avatar

It depends on where you live and the breakdown of where all those taxes go. My little county in MO tales a lot in taxes. Some even goes to support nursing homes! I personally think taxation is way out of hand on numerous levels. Property tax should end. It is crazy as others have stated to keep paying taxes on something you "own."

We also have to pay personal property taxes. They go to all the same places so we get dinged twice!

Expand full comment
Bandit's avatar

No kids. Have been to the library 1 time since moving to this county to get copies of microfiche, which I then PAID for.

Expand full comment
Cousin Clem's avatar

I have no kids but I do use my library often. You should, too. Make use of a wonderful resource like that. Many towns closing libraries due to lack of funds. Providing books, research material, periodicals, music to everyone is a wonderful thing that enriches everyone.

Expand full comment
Pat Wetzel's avatar

No kids.

Expand full comment
Oma's avatar

@Oregon Kathy- if you read each word of my comment, you’ll see, “MOST have NEVER...” I did not say, “I have...” But now that you’ve brought it up, I can say that I’ve paid more and used less than MOST home owners probably have. I volunteered daily at our children’s school until I went to work for the school (they were tired of seeing me there every day) along with still volunteering after work, some of the “volunteer” work being REQUIRED! But because we couldn’t afford private schools it was the best way to see what and who my children were being exposed to. I paid SS for those 23 years until I retired. I then worked another 10 years at our church again paying into SS again, working 7 days a week and on every special event.

Times called the fire department - 0

Times children used school - 12 years - 23 years that I worked = -11 years

Times used Library - 2 - I was refused a library card for each child and one for me as “that was a lot of books to leave the library at one time,” so I stayed until I received 4 library cards and we each checked out 15 books - the limit allowed! So you can count that as many times as you’d like. The second time was our return of 60 books. I just upped the number of books we bought and kept book clubs busy and the school library.

Times called 911 - 0

Times called FPL for personal outages -0 - Times assisting FPL with power outages - 1000000000 +++ - my husband worked for FPL and we assisted every personal call for all our community to help pinpoint the problems and report to get crews to trouble area. After 60 +years of his working there, he still gets calls about outages. Don’t get me started on Hurricane Season! He paid SS for his work hour but none on volunteer hours.

I could continue if you need any more information on my use of community services covered by property taxes.

Expand full comment
Scott's avatar

Good points. I'd only say that after many decades of paying taxes, a little break, especially for lower income folks, wouldn't be out of order. One critical piece of legislation that the Blue Leaches want to abolish in CA is Prop 13. If successful, uncountable number of old residents would IMMEDIATELY be forced from their homes due to the extreme tax hikes. This has already been happening in states without such protection, like Montana. It's sickening.

Expand full comment
RunningLogic's avatar

As you indicated, I think the big issue is with people on a fixed income who suddenly find themselves facing a large property tax increase. They don’t have the financial margin to account for that increase (particularly in times like these where costs on pretty much everything have gone up significantly) and they lose their home.

Expand full comment
Lorita's avatar

Loss of homes for seniors is real. What can you buy for $13 a month? For two people of 76 years of age, that my friends is our combined SS raise this year which they call cost of living. We own a mobile home but rent the the spot that it is on. Rent raises and property tax raises is our portion for being responsible and not getting evicted from our home. Signed Mad as a Wet Hen

I may need deliverance later.

Expand full comment
Bandit's avatar

They want us all dead, so being on the street should hurry it along for them.

Expand full comment
RunningLogic's avatar

Sure seems like it 😕

Expand full comment
CMCM's avatar

Homes prices in CA have gotten obscenely inflated. If Prop 13 were to be abolished and long time homeowners were assessed higher, untold numbers of people would lose their homes. Predominately older people, I would guess. I've lived in my home since 1989 and paid it off long ago. I couldn't afford the property tax on its current supposed value, but I can still afford the rate based on its 1989 purchase value plus a certain amount of yearly increases over the years.

Expand full comment
MarshaLouise's avatar

Really? Montana?!

Expand full comment
My Favorite Things's avatar

Cousin Clem,

I said older, LOW INCOME seniors shouldn’t have to pay property taxes. Don’t they deserve to live their final years without worrying about losing their home?

I am a senior (paying $5,000+ a year) in property taxes. I only use the roads to drive to the store and none of the other services you mentioned.

However, it breaks my heart to see friends struggling to keep their homes because of a death of a spouse. My friend had to sell her home. At her age, she probably doesn’t have more than 10 years of life left. She lost everything she loved in just a few months and has had to start over.

Expand full comment
Dr Linda's avatar

Good points

Expand full comment
Lisa Ca's avatar

Good point

Expand full comment
John infinity N's's avatar

Not only that but all the medical crap down there designed to rob old people

Expand full comment
Robin Greer's avatar

Exactly....take every last penny.

Expand full comment
Margaret Allison's avatar

Thanks Jeff for the news.

Sickening to know SS money going where? And someone stole my SSN after I retired. Fortunately the IRS and SS compared notes. After getting my congressman Gary Palmer’s secretary involved, I was given a person to walk me through the disaster. That still didn’t get me the first $600 given out by the government in 2020.

The person had the audacity to file under my SSN an unreal amount of income! I had to return a check to the IRS for less than $600. Crazy world! I wish they could catch those crooks!

My thought is take out all those people who don’t exist. SS won’t go broke. Elon, find all of those dead people! Those of us alive were obligated by law to pay SS while we worked. Closer to 80 than 70 and very much alive!!!!

Alabama has a waver also.

Expand full comment
CMCM's avatar

I refuse to believe that they can't figure all this out. In today's connected digital world, you can track where money leaves from and where it goes.

Expand full comment
Aloha50's avatar

Correction: Florida need to abolish property taxes

Expand full comment
Robin Greer's avatar

They do this in TN. You can apply for a waiver here.

Expand full comment
My Favorite Things's avatar

Tennessee protects its seniors? Can you please tell me more?

Expand full comment
Yarrow's avatar

Florida already has a generous homestead exemption.

Expand full comment
Beckadee's avatar

AL and TX have a 65+ break of around 10%. And they both have a homestead exemption too, although I forget if they call it that exactly in TX.

Expand full comment
Dena's avatar

Now that WA former Governor left the new one with a several billion dollar deficit, part of the plan is to fund it with an insane increase in property taxes. Dem Legislators pushing a bill to allow annual increases of 3%, up from the current ceiling of 1%. They are all thieves & com

Expand full comment
Kathy's avatar

And Seniors struggling to pay the bills are not allowed to rent out a room in their house, or bake brownies and sell them, without risking losing the Homestead exemption, which is what keeps property taxes from exploding for people who qualify.

Expand full comment
Connie Lemmincakes's avatar

I grouse about it all the time, always vote NO on anything that will raise it, including the library, but NO ONE LISTENS. NO ONE CARES. They don’t realize that you never truly own your home because if you can’t afford the taxes, they’ll just take it.

Expand full comment
Rick Olivier's avatar

It also drives aging property owners OUT of corrupt strongholds like... City Of New Orleans, for example. This is an net positive (for me, anyway, I couldn't wait to move eight miles away and gain a 90% DECREASE in my property taxes).

Expand full comment
Jpeach's avatar

I read DeSantis is exploring the elimination property tax on Florida. Hopefully, at least for seniors.

Expand full comment
FedUpInOR's avatar

No. If for anyone than for everyone. Government shouldn’t get to pick winners and losers

Expand full comment
Oregon Kathy's avatar

This is one thing I don’t get… Property taxes pay for a number of local services -the fire department, school district, library, etc. They are actually bonds that the citizens approved. Abolish property taxes and who pays for that? What am I missing?

Expand full comment
Karen Bandy's avatar

I don’t mind paying property taxes for services. I do mind paying for a bloated park and rec system, and for failing schools. If they were teaching kids how to read I’d be much happier paying the school district taxes. And would be happier if they used the money wisely which they don’t.

I did not have kids, why should I pay for schools? Ok, ok, we all benefit from an educated next generation, but are we getting that?

We’re also getting a huge new library, it’s an edifice. I didn’t vote for that but all the new libs in town did. It’s huge, for a population of approximately 110k in Bend proper?

Expand full comment
FedUpInOR's avatar

Are you in Oregon?

Expand full comment
Karen Bandy's avatar

Yes, I’m in Bend. Grew up in the burbs of Ptld.

Expand full comment
Jeff C's avatar

Man that sounds difficult Dave, prayers that you find a way to make it through it.

Younger folks, please take Dave's warning to heart. Take advantage of an employer's 401k plan, particularly if they have a matching provision, and put away at least 10% (more is better) of every paycheck. You cannot count on the government to take care of you in old age. Listen to Dave Ramsey's counsel about living below your means and saving to ensure you have a cushion later in life. I know Ramsey can come off as a crusty old Boomer, but he's absolutely right about delayed gratification, staying out of debt, and wealth building for retirement.

Expand full comment
Donna in MO's avatar

I just got my annual statement from Social Security. It plainly says "Social Security is not intended to be your only source of retirement income" We have been saving for retirement since we got our first jobs out of college. Our parents were both working class and they too socked a little bit away and also had pensions. My dad and father in law have both passed, but my mom and MIL are actually doing fine as they have investment income that is the result of decades of frugal living. My mom no longer drives, so I do most of her shopping and she still uses old whipped cream tubs for 'redneck tupperware' and yells at me for paying too much for jello. I am like, MOM! You can afford the jello!

Expand full comment
Beckadee's avatar

I love your Mom- I bet she makes a mean congealed salad from Betty Crocker!

Expand full comment
Donna in MO's avatar

LOL! She is the queen of thrift, and I inherited her tendencies. My kids make fun of me. Although I did switch to glass containers since plastic is supposed to be bad for you. Bought them for mom too but she won't use them as she has bad arthritis in her hands and has dropped some and they break, so back to the cool whip containers....

Expand full comment
Shari Ray's avatar

Glass containers which I use also, have plastic lids… reminds me of the straw debate 😂

Expand full comment
MarshaLouise's avatar

Yes, but who ate that Cool Whip? That’s bad stuff.

Expand full comment
Donna in MO's avatar

Yeah, I know but she is 86 YO and generally eats a pretty healthy diet, lots of vegetables, lean meat or fish, low carbs and her AL place has a pretty healthy menu but she eats some meals in her room. Her 'treat' every day is jello with cool whip. She's made it this far, and is pretty healthy for her age, has aFib, so takes a blood thinner, and takes a thyroid pill, that's it. She's in AL due to balance issues/arthritis and bad knees that she refuses surgery for. Uses a walker in her apt and electric wheelchair to get around the facility. She did get 2 covid shots but had a lot of skin issues after that and her PCP told her not to get any more. So at this point, I am not arguing with her about her cool whip.

Expand full comment
Ruth H's avatar

Never rely on the gov, ie Social Security, and rely on yourself by always saving each month, even if some months are a meager amount. Consider SS a bonus. Even retirement cannot be considered safe if the company goes bankrupt and your pension is not guaranteed by the company. Teach your children at a young age to save. My father and mother lived through the Great Depression, stood in milk lines, etc, and my dad preached savings every time we earned any money. For me it was babysitting as a teen for 50cents an hour. Yeah, I’m old going by that pay scale. My first full time job paid $180 a month, not a week but for a month. I also knew to save and still find it hard not to each month.

Expand full comment
Karen Bandy's avatar

We must be about the same age. Those baby sitting gigs gave us a lot of things, some dough, lots of responsibility/learning, and taught us to save. My first part-time job was $1.65 an hour. My first full time teaching job earned me about $730 take home a month and I was happy!

Expand full comment
Rick Olivier's avatar

Exactly what I have instructed my child to do. My parents were Depression kids too.

Expand full comment
Bgagnon's avatar

Great advice … sounds like you and I are of the same generation! 👏🏻

Expand full comment
Donna in MO's avatar

We started telling our kids when they were in elementary school to save for a rainy day and don't count on social security as the gov will bankrupt it. There used to be a 'kids' mutual fund, that invested in companies kids knew, and sent educational materials a couple of times a year, that they contributed to from chores, gifts from relatives, etc, and could watch that money grow for college. Returns weren't stellar but we weren't talking big amounts anyway, point was teaching them about investing. Was discontinued when they were HS age and we flipped to an ESA. But grown adults now and despite one turning liberal, still save for retirement.

I made $1.50 an hour babysitting (70's), except one family paid $2 an hour and they were night owls, got paid to watch a lot of late night tv, lol.

Expand full comment
Donna in MO's avatar

Oh and love Dave, we were Dave people before Dave was cool. Debt free since 2005, thanks to our parents who passed their frugal ways on to us.

Expand full comment
Jeff C's avatar

Yeah same here regarding being a Ramsey fan. Listening to his show, when people in their late fifties and sixties call in and have no money though, is absolutely heartbreaking. People in their twenties should be made to listen, sort of a financial "scared straight".

The really eye-opening aspect is realizing how every aspect of our society is geared toward taking on debt as a good and normal thing. Credit cards, car loans, student loans, etc. are all portrayed as the norm rather than the road to ruin that they are.

Expand full comment
Donna in MO's avatar

I get stressed out just listening to some of these callers! It's no wonder people are stressed out and have mental health challenges. I would be depressed too if I was my age (59) and nothing to show for all my hard work but a pile of bills. But we drive 10 YO cars and DIY most home improvements (YouTube videos, lol) and have never had a manicure, get $20 haircuts and make coffee at home, unlike many of my broke friends. One just told me she paid $400 at a hair salon!!! And middle class. Invest that $400 and see what it is in 10 years. Hope you like the dye job!!

Expand full comment
Jeff C's avatar

I like your style Donna. I was up on my roof pulling up tiles and resealing the underlayment seams over the weekend myself. Recent rains showed a few leaks and I was easily able to track them down. Replaced a bunch of cracked tiles while at it too. Worked great.

In my neighborhood a new roof can be 30 grand! No freaking way I'm paying that when I can repair it myself for a couple hundred in material. I'd much rather give that money to my kids to buy a house once they've shown they are responsible adults than some roofing contractor.

Expand full comment
Donna in MO's avatar

Roofing is not our skill. (I say 'our' but 90% of the skills are hubby's, lol) We got a new roof via the insurance co. after a big hail storm in 2011. Actually felt kind of bad about it. We had the same insurance company for 20 years and zero claims. Switched about 6 months before the hailstorm as the past co. had a big premium increase. Surprisingly, despite the payout for the roof, our rates only went up marginally, though. Big hike last year though so we ditched them. We have a broker thru Daves ELP program and they do a good job shopping the market and saves us a bunch of work. Never used any of this other ELPs though.

Expand full comment
RunningLogic's avatar

I love him too, I am going to buy his homeschool course in personal finance to work on with my teenage son 🙂

Expand full comment
Jeff C's avatar

My kid's Christian high used it as part of their economics curriculum. Highly recommended.

Expand full comment
RunningLogic's avatar

Maybe Trump should make Dave Ramsey head of some government agencies that need to trim their budgets 😁 “Rice and beans, beans and rice” for all until further notice 😆

Expand full comment
Pat Wetzel's avatar

And pray you don't lose your business to a covid type event.

Expand full comment
jmsmithmd's avatar

My grama had a stack of cool whip tubs and lids, and refolded tinfoil to put over the jello salad.

Expand full comment
Robert McCluskey's avatar

AND PAY THE TAXES UP FRONT!

Expand full comment
Jamison's avatar

My dad passed 5 years ago at 97 years old. His monthly SS payment was about $900.

Expand full comment
Ruth H's avatar

My mom passed away at age 84. Her SS was $600 and her medications took half of it. Her home and car was paid for, but still had to pay insurance on both along with maintenance, food and utilities. My dad left her a savings account, but it was drained slowly after 2 decades leaving her with 15 years pinching pennies and not wanting help. Her last two years were spent in assisted living paid with from selling her home. She was somehow able to get by and still leave money to pay for her funeral. A testament to live by and I miss her every day even after 20 years.

Expand full comment
Robin Greer's avatar

So sad. No one can live off of that.

Expand full comment
Marilynne Martin's avatar

My parent were depression babies and would tell you if alive today - "Social Security was never meant to live off it. It was meant to "supplement"."

Expand full comment
Abiding Dude's avatar

Those that don't put in much do not get much.

Anything more is "Welfare"... right?

Expand full comment
Jamison's avatar

That’s why my dad lived with my husband and me for the last 18 years of his life.

Expand full comment
Dave aka Geezermann's avatar

That is approximately what I receive each month to live on.

Expand full comment
shayne's avatar

Oh that's criminal, Dave. Something needs to be done....

Expand full comment
Jamison's avatar

Oh. That’s rough. 🙁

Expand full comment
RJ Rambler's avatar

😭

Expand full comment
Dr Linda's avatar

I’m sorry. That sounds dreadful.

Expand full comment
Alan Devincentis's avatar

How wrong is that?

Expand full comment
Robin Esau's avatar

I'm so sorry and really hope they do that! It is beyond scandalous what they have done.

Expand full comment
Dean's avatar

😔

Expand full comment
FedUpInOR's avatar

And that large number is simply what will go out the door this year for those fraudulently on the record over 100, there are many more fraudulently on the record collecting Social Security and multiply those numbers by how many years it has been happening and it’s trillions right there.

Expand full comment
Alan Devincentis's avatar

Be great to scan for those young people with back pain, collecting disability! But that would be racisss.

Expand full comment
Fred Jewett's avatar

I had a friend who pretended to fall off a train so he could collect sick benefits for a "bad back" while he went to Acapulco in the 70s to recover.

Expand full comment
Kathy's avatar

Unfortunately, we have probably two or 3 million new disability cases caused by vaccine injuries. Check out Edward Dowd’s website Phinance Technologies.

Expand full comment
RunningLogic's avatar

Yes that’s true 😞

Expand full comment
Based Florida Man's avatar

Also Disability should have never been funded from Social Security, which is for retirees.

It should be separately funded. And seriously half the people on it are scammers.

Expand full comment
Susan Seas's avatar

I know a young lady who’s birth father received disability and when he died the disability payments went to her. Maybe because she might have been under 18 and maybe they stopped after that but I believe her Mom would mention her still receiving those payments. 🤷🏼‍♀️ Ridiculous for disability to be passed down. 🤔

Expand full comment
RunningLogic's avatar

People with genuine disabilities have a heck of a time getting disability too! Most people have to go through the privées and appeal multiple times from what I’ve seen.

Expand full comment
Ryan Gardner's avatar

excellent comment

the real question for me is how much that's been over, let's say, the last 40 years?

I suspect it's astronomical

Expand full comment
AM Schimberg's avatar

Yes, but probably corrupt, at least in part, since it's inception. The scope has only got worse through the years as it was realized that no one was looking!

Expand full comment
Cookie Dee's avatar

You are only calculating the people over 100 years old. With the average life expectancy in the US being 79 years old, I suspect there are many people under 100 that are also dead and collecting. It seems like a simple problem for DOGE. They just write a program that compares all death certificates to SS rolls and Bingo we save billions.

Expand full comment
jmsmithmd's avatar

Or ask all recipients to confirm proof of life with an ID and /or a doctor’s note if incapacitated.

Expand full comment
Robin Greer's avatar

I wonder if this scam was made much easier when the government switched to all EFT payments. I also wonder if there is similar fraud going on at all of the other agencies. My mind is blown by the sheer enormity of this fraud.

Expand full comment
AM Schimberg's avatar

Absolutely happening. Wait until DOGE hits Medicare! 🤯

Expand full comment
Lorita's avatar

I'd bet the farm there is A LOT more.

Expand full comment
Dawn B's avatar

And to think Biden administration had the gall to hire a bunch of IRS agents for collecting more $$$ meanwhile they could have been used for the SS fraud.

Expand full comment
RunningLogic's avatar

Right?????

Expand full comment
Tom's avatar

Given that dead people are also quite disabled, I wonder if any of them are double-dipping.

Expand full comment
Tom Wiedemeier's avatar

Thanks for doing the math FedUp. You beat me to it. This is 1/2 trillion dollars a year in waste. Approximately $10 trillion just this century. Give or take, not taking inflation into account. Sadly, this waste is one of the reasons for our inflation. So this scandal alone will account for 1/4 of the $2 trillion a year savings Trump and Musk are looking for. It would be nice to have a daily meter of the cumulative percentage total to that $2 trillion savings. My guess is it has to be at least 25 to 50% so far? Hopefully more?

Expand full comment
CeeMcG's avatar

Every time a death certificate is issued, that person should automatically be removed from Social Security, disability, Medicare, and the voter registration rolls! I notified the San Diego voter registration office that the previous owner of my home died in 2006 and sent them a printout of his obituary from the local paper. They wrote back and said I need to send them his death certificate - me, who has no relation to a man who would be over 120 years old now. 🤦🏼‍♀️

Expand full comment
RunningLogic's avatar

Ugh such ridiculous incompetence! Or maybe purposeful 🤨 Now I’m starting to wonder if they didn’t pursue these cases because someone in the administration was pocketing the money!! 😡

Expand full comment
LamedVav disavows all vaxes.'s avatar

Cee, the man you spoke to at the voter registration office used the information from your obituary to get a check sent to himself.

That’s why he refused to take it off the rolls .

Expand full comment
KC & the Sunshine's avatar

it it isn’t even 18+ million. It’s 64 million. (I’m rounding, Jim.)

I can’t even do that math bc I am

a product of the DoE.

Staggering.

Expand full comment
william cook's avatar

The 1976 dollar figure is way off. I know of several women , some who worked for health clinics for over 25 years and they get 800. I had a bodyhsop with 5 mne and i am getting 1400. An emnployee I had that made 50k a year was getting 1800 a month . SS likes to exagerate the payout. On other hand the teachers I know are getting 80-100k per year, They have a scam where they raise the pay in last 2-3 years before retirement and then they get 75-80% of highest pay. One friend told me, he said isnt that cool? I was horrified,

Expand full comment
Lydia Lozano's avatar

Yes. Name some names. The nameless, faceless Social Security honchos responsible for the decision need to be outed and shamed.

Expand full comment
Cookie Dee's avatar

How many under 100 are also dead??

Expand full comment
Merry McIntyre's avatar

Especially after the kill shot.

Expand full comment