They are grappling with reality which is something this administration and the military brass is not good at. Maybe a couple of bud lites or Miller lites could help. 🤔 😄
Maybe, on taking whatever may be their oath of office, they next step into the Hollywood-in-D.C. make-up artist salon, where a mask (or several, each with a different facial expression) is created for each new official.
Because these ppl don't have a moral compass. Their only guiding principle is power. When we quit asking that question, then we will have finally recognized the evil that confronts us and seeks to destroy us. There is NO common ground between us and them.
"How do these people live with themselves?" Dr. L, money is an aphrodisiac. I assume making enough of it will numb the mind to the suffering of other. Just saying....
They looked at the fine example set by the US government circa 1876. (Of course I shouldn’t complain, I rather like South Dakota being a part of the US and not a sovereign nation.)
You have a good point about Russia/the Soviet Union, but name another government-related bureaucracy, anywhere, that has ever 'dissolved.' Their mission always becomes remaining in existence, whether it takes a completely different type of work than originally conceived or any other measure.
Talk to any one of the descendants of those whose treaties have been broken by the US government and I promise they will tell you that it is still very much a current issue. The Sioux are still trying to get the Black Hills back (although if they successfully got them back I assume they would then get sued by the Crow since they pushed the Crow out of the area only a couple of generations prior).
My point was more that as Americans we like to sit here on our high horse having reaped the benefits of imperialist expansion and war crimes galore (General Sherman is a hero of mine but the March to the Sea would clearly be defined as war crime today.) But then wringing our hands or denouncing when others perform the exact same actions.
The Sioux would gladly accept their stolen lands back (they were indeed stolen since they were granted by treaty which was then ignored) today. So if we are going to claim that it is somehow wrong or immoral for Russia to break treaties to grow their borders then shouldn’t we first return the land that we took in the same way?
There are no good guys in the Ukraine/Russia conflict, not the Russian government, not the Ukrainian government, certainly not the US government.
The Russians didn’t break any treaty. It was NATO that intentionally refused to enforce the Minsk Accords by their own admission. It was NATO that continuously advanced eastward with the goal of eventually balkanizing Russia and and helping them themselves to the spoils as they have done in Ukraine. For some reason Russia just doesn’t want to submit to its own destruction by the US and will actually defend itself. If Americans understood the degree to which the US has meddled in the internal affairs of other sovereign nations, overthrowing elected governments, paying off politicians, etc. over the past 30 years then maybe we would clean house of these warmongers and actually defend our OWN borders. I say this as someone who in 2020 woke up because of COVID. I voted straight Republican for my entire life never once questioning anything I was told. No more. I will not be “ the Good German”.
Yours is the real point. That there has been an over-arching multi-decades long plan to bring Russia down, break Russia up, and control the real estate for resource access. NATO expansion eastwards, the Balkan wars, the Middle East wars, Afghanistan, this is a mult-decade effort of encirclement and constriction so as to destroy the prey and control of Russia and the Asia Heartland. And whether R or D, they were mostly all in on it.
And as we see, no care about boarders or building up a genuinely productive country. Public policy in the 'United States' is really no more than sack and seize ... and destroy anything in its path. This is the picture of a civilization in the last acts of self-destruction.
You have a very low bar for “good guys”. The Ukrainian are the corrupt puppets of an even more corrupt American government. I agree that the people of Ukraine are the largest victims of the conflict (although to some degree the civilians of the world are victims, nobody wanted this and everyone is paying for it one way or another). However being the victim doesn’t make you the good guy. The Ukrainian people accepted the puppet government that the US government installed. Worse the majority either actively supported or silently allowed the persecution of ethnic Russians within Ukraine’s borders. If you were an ethnic Russian living in Donbas who has lived in a war zone since 2014 then Russian intervention looks more like liberation than invasion. So no, there are no good guys.
The Ukrainian people revolted against their Russian backed oppressors and the Russian secret police who committed numerous crimes against them.
If you support the Ukrainian people support the nation. They are trying to survive while Russia is trying to eleminate Ukrainian identity, language, and culture.
There was never any persecution. More "russians" died during Russia's invasion than any persecution. The president of Ukraine spoke only Russian until recently. He was elected.
This war isn't about the Donbass. It's about Ukraine. That's why Russia tried to take Kyiv and all of Ukraine. Putin claims Ukraine as his own and even declared victory over a year ago.
If you believe that story I can only surmise you also believe that we invaded Iraq because Saddam had WMDs and that we won the war in Afghanistan. I recommend checking out the Jocko Unraveling and the Martyr Made podcasts and the Martyr Made Substack for a better picture of what is actually going on in this conflict and about the 2014 election in particular.
More than 3400 civilians were killed in Donbas from 2014 to Dec 2021, if getting killed isn’t persecution I’m not sure what is. To get some idea of the persecution the ethnic Russians have faced, I suggest watching “The Battle for Ukraine Frontline” on FRONTLINE PBS on YouTube. Or for fun try a search of the words “ethnic Russian persecution” or “ASOV” but set the search parameters to between 2014 and 2021.
I never said that Russia or Putin were in the right, I explicitly said nobody is a good guy. I never claimed that Putin was invading to free the ethnic Russians or that he cares about them. My point was that a government that installs itself via foreign backed coup, persecutes a minority group within its borders, enriches itself while its citizens are killed, and acts in the interests of those who put it in power rather than in the people of their country doesn’t get to claim they are the good guys, regardless of the circumstance they find themselves in. Similarly a citizenry that allows the persecution of a minority group within their nation doesn’t get to call themselves the good guys. It doesn’t mean that they aren’t victims, it doesn’t mean they deserve whatever happens to them. It isn’t necessarily the case that in any given conflict one party is evil and one is good, it’s entirely possible and in fact probable that a conflict can be between an evil power and a slightly less evil power. Was Saddam the good guy? Nope, he was an evil monster. Was Bush the good guy? Nope, he was an evil monster. Were the Iraqi people the good guys? Well enough of them supported Saddam to keep him in power and they were pretty good at killing each other over sectarian issues so no, not particularly. Was the American public the good guys? Nope we bought the lies hook, line, and sinker and supported Bush and the war. We shrugged it off when our leaders used drone strikes on weddings and when our allies used weapons we gave them to take out school buses. Maybe worse than that (because at least those are foreigners) we allowed our government to order drone strikes on American citizens without trial. (To be fair to Bush, that was Obama, another evil monster.)
Germany wrongly invaded Russia in 1941, that didn’t make Stalin a good guy.
I have a lot of sympathy for the average Ukrainian. Heck I even have sympathy for the Azov battalion and the neo-Nazis, better dead than red is a statement I 100% endorse. I definitely wouldn’t want to be annexed by Russia, I know about the Holodomor. But I also have sympathy for the everyday Germans who got killed in WWII. I have sympathy for the Japanese civilians in Hiroshima. I have sympathy for the Soviets trapped in Stalingrad. I have sympathy for the Ukrainians whose churches have been closed down by the Ukrainian government because they are Russian Orthodox. But my feelings of sympathy do not make them “good guys”, my feelings of sympathy do not absolve them of their national sins. The war in Ukraine is predominantly Christian Russians killing predominantly Christian Ukrainians primarily over the actions of predominantly Christian America. We have let our governments convince us to kill our brothers and sisters in Christ so that they can gain wealth and power. Russian, Ukrainian, American, we are not the good guys.
"More than 3400 civilians were killed in Donbas from 2014 to Dec 2021, if getting killed isn’t persecution I’m not sure what is."
That's a war that Russia started by invading Ukraine with "little green men" they denied were there. For example, Russia killed 283 people when it shot down MH17. Also of note: Russia killed ten times that in one month alone in Oblast it "claims". It Dnipro it killed almost 30 people when an anti ship missile struck an apartment building, caught on camera.
The OCIE recorded only about 14 people killed in Donbass in all of 2021. Where are you getting your numbers from, a .ru address? Let's look at the OCIE numbers and figures for hostile fire for 2021.
"To put it To get some idea of the persecution the ethnic Russians have faced, I suggest watching “The Battle for Ukraine Frontline” on FRONTLINE PBS on YouTube. "
How did "Ethnic Russians' get in Ukraine? Russia forcibly deported the original occupants and replaced them with Russian speakers. Zelenskyy himself is a Russian speaker and Russia has been trying to kill him for the last 15 months. That's persecution right there. Putin has killed more Ethnic Russians through his war than Ukraine has killed by over 1000k times. Easy. Look at the casualty counts for the LPR and DPR troops used as meat shields.
"I never said that Russia or Putin were in the right, I explicitly said nobody is a good guy. I never claimed that Putin was invading to free the ethnic Russians or that he cares about them. "
You did that in the above post, literally. You've parroted his propaganda quite a bit. You've spent the entire 8 paragraph or so post justifying Putin's invasion while denying you are.
"My point was that a government that installs itself via foreign backed coup, persecutes a minority group within its borders, enriches itself while its citizens are killed, and acts in the interests of those who put it in power rather than in the people of their country doesn’t get to claim they are the good guys, regardless of the circumstance they find themselves in."
So Russia when it claims it owns Ukraine and that when Ukraine kicks out the Russian backed oppressors (Remember, the russian backed president took off with billions and is living the high life in Russia) it's the bad guy, correct?
" Similarly a citizenry that allows the persecution of a minority group within their nation doesn’t get to call themselves the good guys. "
That's Russia, literally. Putin has been obsessed with Ukraine and even wrote a paper about it and how it belongs to Russia and Ukrainian identity, culture, and language does not exist. 15,000 children have been forcibly deported to Russia to be "adopted" by Russian families where they are forced to shed their Ukrainian heritage, language, and identity.
When Russia comes into a town it brings in the FSB to torture, root out veterans, local politicians, and problematic people. That's who was in the mass graves found in Kharkiv and Izium and Bucha.
"I have a lot of sympathy for the average Ukrainian. "
You actually don't. You want them to live under a government that doesn't care and wants to extinguish them and their culture, language, and identity.
"I definitely wouldn’t want to be annexed by Russia."
You've literally swallowed their propaganda. That's doubtful. Feel free to get a covid vaccine since it's supported by putin and mandated by him.
"I know about the Holodomor."
Who did the Holodmor? Where did the orders come from? Moscow, the Kremlin, and the politburo.
"I have sympathy for the Ukrainians whose churches have been closed down by the Ukrainian government because they are Russian Orthodox. "
No, you don't.
Why were those "churches" shut down and why did those "priests" have Russian passports, Russian propaganda, and aid Russian agents? That's not called being a church, it's called being a foreign agent.
Am I allowed to setup a church in Russia and secretly support Pro-Ukraine messages, agents, and push their propaganda? Why not? If I'm shut down does that mean Russia is attacking the church?
Ask yourself why Patrick Kuril, the head patriarch of the Russian orthodox church, has a 40k dollar watch and works for the Russian FSB. Don't ask me, do the research.
"The war in Ukraine is predominantly Christian Russians killing predominantly Christian Ukrainians primarily over the actions of predominantly Christian America. "
Actually, no.
This is Putin attempting to use the weakness in America to his advantage and take Ukraine for his own, once and for all. That's why there was so many jack booted thugs in the Russian formations, such as the SOBR (They got brutalized and whacked, by the way). He never expected Ukraine to fight so hard and fully planned for this to be over in a few days.
This entire war is the fault of Putin and Russia, not Ukraine or the west. Ukraine has the right to make it's own decisions. Your neighbor does not have the right to kick in your door and make you get a covid shot. Or does he?
We have let our governments convince us to kill our brothers and sisters in Christ so that they can gain wealth and power. Russian, Ukrainian, American, we are not the good guys.
We are the good guys. Feel free to project your weakness and willingness to surrender. I won't.
I stood against evil with Biden's mandates. I still support Ukraine today and our friends and allies there fighting the good fight to save their nation.
Remember: Russia declared victory 452 days ago on February 26th, 2022. It's now May 23rd, 2023. Ukraine turned the tides and just invaded Russia and seized Belgorod.
It's time for Putin to surrender Belgorod oblast to Ukraine and sign a peace deal and stop being a war monger. They also conducted a referendum and 110% of the residents voted to join Ukraine with the voting being conducted by the Ukrainian army.
Funny how that works. It worked for Donetsk, Luhansk, Zap, and Kherson oblast. Works for belgorod.
I support missionairies in Ukraine and they have no problems preaching the gospel and running a children's camp. Russian missiles have over flown them in Mikolaiv and landed near their camp.
Frankly you sound like my toddler, these guys are my guys so they are the good guys. I notice that you didn’t watch the video and find any inaccuracies in it. Instead you just claim that Putin is worse. You claim that despite the fact that I have repeatedly said that there are no good guys and that includes Putin that I am supporting Putin by pushing Russian propaganda. I would be interested to see how Putin infiltrated PBS in 2014, or how he controlled the US media prior to 2022.
Speaking Russian doesn’t make one ethnically Russian. I speak Spanish, doesn’t make me Mexican. I have no love for the Russian Orthodox Church the actions of the leadership under the Soviets was inexcusable. However regardless of the actions of the leadership there are heartfelt believers on a local level whose ability to live out their faith has been destroyed by the government.
I agree that the Ukrainians have a right to determine their own future however that means free from American interference as well as Russian interference. Furthermore they shouldn’t have the right to American resources.
Putin is a bad guy. Zelensky is a bad guy. Biden is a bad guy. The Russian people are victims of this conflict. The Ukrainian people are victims of this conflict. The American people are victims of this conflict. But none of us are innocent victims. We all hold responsibility for our complicity with the evil actions of our own governments as well as with allowing injustice within our own borders because we have the luxury of ignoring it.
“Feel free to project your weakness and willingness to surrender. I won't.” Fuck you. My family already sacrificed in the name of this God forsaken US government when my husband took a bullet to the face in Iraq. He will be paying for our last attempt at playing the good guy every single day for the rest of his life. I will be paying for it. Our children will pay for it. Our children’s children will be paying for it. His best friends served and their families will be paying for it. My best friend and her family will be paying for it because her husband served. So fuck you. Fuck you for continuing to support a government that sent my husband and hundreds of thousands of other patriots to war based on a lie. And fuck you for trying to push and support a war that we have no business engaging in, that was heavily influenced by the same turds that got us into Iraq. And fuck you for claiming that because I don’t want to send my son to take a bullet to the face in Kiyv and because I don’t want my tax dollars to be used to kill some other woman’s husband or son in Donetsk, that is somehow weakness and a willingness to surrender. If you actually believe the propaganda that we had nothing to do with the coup then at best this conflict is none of our business and not our problem. We should be ignoring it the same way we ignore the constant killing in Africa. (Bet you don’t care in the least that we aren’t helping South Sudan protect itself against Sudan.)
If you think Ukrainians have the right to sovereignty (which I do) then it should be entirely up to them to defend said sovereignty. If they have to rely on the US for protection then they aren’t sovereign, they are American interests. The Ukrainian people are not strong enough to be sovereign, they are either going to be controlled by Russia or controlled by the US. Let’s say your wildest dreams come true and Putin lays down arms today and victory is declared and Ukraine “wins”. The US has “given” Ukraine more than $110 billion in support to fight this war. Do you think that’s a gift or an investment? The first time a conflict comes up between the interests of the Ukrainian people and the Biden administration who do you think Zelensky will support? Before this war and before he was even President, Biden bragged about the level of control he had over Ukrainian politics, you think $110 billion doesn’t buy complete loyalty and acquiescence? Living under the American boot is undoubtedly better than living under the Russian boot but let’s not pretend that sovereignty is on the table.
If you want to go fight and die in Ukraine and tell yourself that makes you some sort of hero then go for it. But I have no interest in paying for another CIA created conflict either financially or personally, I’m too busy paying for the last one.
“We would support any third-party peace proposal, as long as it can be seen as credible, enforceable and sustainable.”
How can this person say this with a straight face? I am so irritated by this remark it is beyond reasonable. How do these people live with themselves?
“Kirby’s nose grew so long it kept knocking over the microphone stand.”
C&C GOLD!! 😆
And this one: "Maybe we should stop trying to find out who has the stiffest missiles"
Nothing like a caffeine spit-take first thing in the morning. ROFL!
I have started making sure I swallow my coffee sip before I continue reading lest this happens again!
It’s the only way not to have coffee spray all over your screen and your clothes 😆😁
Couple that with the “trading make-up tips” comment makes for mind boggling theater.
They are grappling with reality which is something this administration and the military brass is not good at. Maybe a couple of bud lites or Miller lites could help. 🤔 😄
I think several mRNA martinis would be better.
Shaken, not stirred.
Injected 💉
No aspiration necessary.
Ouch! That was a good one.
Later Jay
Spot on, Dr. Linda.
First of all - WHO the heck are we, that our "approval" would be necessary?
Our govt has such great skills - talking out of both sides of the mouth, stating opposing narratives.
Maybe it IS our war - after all, WE have paid for it.
“Sustainable”
I’ve grown to detest that word!
Dang if these idjits aren’t the epitome of sustainable. Gift that keeps on giving 😡
Maybe, on taking whatever may be their oath of office, they next step into the Hollywood-in-D.C. make-up artist salon, where a mask (or several, each with a different facial expression) is created for each new official.
Because these ppl don't have a moral compass. Their only guiding principle is power. When we quit asking that question, then we will have finally recognized the evil that confronts us and seeks to destroy us. There is NO common ground between us and them.
Greasy Kirby. Makes my skin crawl.
"How do these people live with themselves?" Dr. L, money is an aphrodisiac. I assume making enough of it will numb the mind to the suffering of other. Just saying....
Later Jay
Maybe but I just can’t imagine.
Because Russia broke every peace plan it saw to gain land and conquer its neighbors
They looked at the fine example set by the US government circa 1876. (Of course I shouldn’t complain, I rather like South Dakota being a part of the US and not a sovereign nation.)
Going back 150 years?
Cool.
It’s been just over a year since Russia broke its treaty.
How many years since NATO violated its promises about soliciting new members?
None. There was never a promise.
If there was Russia invading Moldova and Georgia broke that “promise” and caused eastern Europe to join nato.
You're likely correct, but perception determines policies:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/12/russias-belief-in-nato-betrayal-and-why-it-matters-today
If Russia hadn’t had a pretty bad history of genocide and ethnic cleaning in Eastern Europe there would be no nato. It would have dissolved.
The US is much wiser - we offshore our ethnic cleansing.
You have a good point about Russia/the Soviet Union, but name another government-related bureaucracy, anywhere, that has ever 'dissolved.' Their mission always becomes remaining in existence, whether it takes a completely different type of work than originally conceived or any other measure.
The warsaw pact.
If Russia wouldn't have invaded Georgia and Moldova it is likely that none of the eastern Nato members would have ever joined.
Talk to any one of the descendants of those whose treaties have been broken by the US government and I promise they will tell you that it is still very much a current issue. The Sioux are still trying to get the Black Hills back (although if they successfully got them back I assume they would then get sued by the Crow since they pushed the Crow out of the area only a couple of generations prior).
My point was more that as Americans we like to sit here on our high horse having reaped the benefits of imperialist expansion and war crimes galore (General Sherman is a hero of mine but the March to the Sea would clearly be defined as war crime today.) But then wringing our hands or denouncing when others perform the exact same actions.
The Sioux would gladly accept their stolen lands back (they were indeed stolen since they were granted by treaty which was then ignored) today. So if we are going to claim that it is somehow wrong or immoral for Russia to break treaties to grow their borders then shouldn’t we first return the land that we took in the same way?
There are no good guys in the Ukraine/Russia conflict, not the Russian government, not the Ukrainian government, certainly not the US government.
The Russians didn’t break any treaty. It was NATO that intentionally refused to enforce the Minsk Accords by their own admission. It was NATO that continuously advanced eastward with the goal of eventually balkanizing Russia and and helping them themselves to the spoils as they have done in Ukraine. For some reason Russia just doesn’t want to submit to its own destruction by the US and will actually defend itself. If Americans understood the degree to which the US has meddled in the internal affairs of other sovereign nations, overthrowing elected governments, paying off politicians, etc. over the past 30 years then maybe we would clean house of these warmongers and actually defend our OWN borders. I say this as someone who in 2020 woke up because of COVID. I voted straight Republican for my entire life never once questioning anything I was told. No more. I will not be “ the Good German”.
Yours is the real point. That there has been an over-arching multi-decades long plan to bring Russia down, break Russia up, and control the real estate for resource access. NATO expansion eastwards, the Balkan wars, the Middle East wars, Afghanistan, this is a mult-decade effort of encirclement and constriction so as to destroy the prey and control of Russia and the Asia Heartland. And whether R or D, they were mostly all in on it.
And as we see, no care about boarders or building up a genuinely productive country. Public policy in the 'United States' is really no more than sack and seize ... and destroy anything in its path. This is the picture of a civilization in the last acts of self-destruction.
Maybe Russia could, IDK, stop trying to advance Westward into other nations.
Russia has to invade and force people to join them.
people join nato freely after a vote.
Moldova
Georgia
Ukraine
Remember that.
Exactly!
Trump put an armored brigade on Russia's border.
Are you saying Trump was wrong when he designed Russia as a primary threat?
Unfortunately, you just seem to be incapable of getting it.
Are you saying trump was wrong?
All excellent points.
To add, look at how many RINOs push the Ukraine scam and the Covid scam. And they do nothing of the 3rd world invaders.
We're really not represented by any politician.
What Ukraine "scam"?
Trump sent lethal aid to Ukraine, reversing Biden and obama's choice.
Russia did break plenty of treaties.
What is the budapest memorandum, again? The one where Russia promised to respect Ukraine's territorial integrity if they got rid of their nukes?
Oh, that one.
And the treaty of Russian-Ukrainian friendship.
That too.
Go into Russia and call it a war and ask why Russian young men are dying for a Tsar's ego.
There was never any treaty. Please point out to where an agreement was made and signed.
But whenever you do, remember that Russia invaded Moldova and Georgia before any new Nato members were added.
ask yourself this: Why do Eastern European nations join nato? Does someone force them to join?
Or they remember the brutality of Moscow rule and don't ever want to be under that yoke again.
🎯
To your point: read "Diary of an Economic Hit Man" by John Perkins. It is Rose-colored-glasses shattering.
There are plenty of good guys in the War.
Ukraine is the victim.
Russia is the aggressor.
Who invaded who?
Ukraine is slowly clawing its way to freedom out of the Russian sphere of control.
You have a very low bar for “good guys”. The Ukrainian are the corrupt puppets of an even more corrupt American government. I agree that the people of Ukraine are the largest victims of the conflict (although to some degree the civilians of the world are victims, nobody wanted this and everyone is paying for it one way or another). However being the victim doesn’t make you the good guy. The Ukrainian people accepted the puppet government that the US government installed. Worse the majority either actively supported or silently allowed the persecution of ethnic Russians within Ukraine’s borders. If you were an ethnic Russian living in Donbas who has lived in a war zone since 2014 then Russian intervention looks more like liberation than invasion. So no, there are no good guys.
What puppet did America install?
The Ukrainian people revolted against their Russian backed oppressors and the Russian secret police who committed numerous crimes against them.
If you support the Ukrainian people support the nation. They are trying to survive while Russia is trying to eleminate Ukrainian identity, language, and culture.
There was never any persecution. More "russians" died during Russia's invasion than any persecution. The president of Ukraine spoke only Russian until recently. He was elected.
This war isn't about the Donbass. It's about Ukraine. That's why Russia tried to take Kyiv and all of Ukraine. Putin claims Ukraine as his own and even declared victory over a year ago.
If you believe that story I can only surmise you also believe that we invaded Iraq because Saddam had WMDs and that we won the war in Afghanistan. I recommend checking out the Jocko Unraveling and the Martyr Made podcasts and the Martyr Made Substack for a better picture of what is actually going on in this conflict and about the 2014 election in particular.
More than 3400 civilians were killed in Donbas from 2014 to Dec 2021, if getting killed isn’t persecution I’m not sure what is. To get some idea of the persecution the ethnic Russians have faced, I suggest watching “The Battle for Ukraine Frontline” on FRONTLINE PBS on YouTube. Or for fun try a search of the words “ethnic Russian persecution” or “ASOV” but set the search parameters to between 2014 and 2021.
I never said that Russia or Putin were in the right, I explicitly said nobody is a good guy. I never claimed that Putin was invading to free the ethnic Russians or that he cares about them. My point was that a government that installs itself via foreign backed coup, persecutes a minority group within its borders, enriches itself while its citizens are killed, and acts in the interests of those who put it in power rather than in the people of their country doesn’t get to claim they are the good guys, regardless of the circumstance they find themselves in. Similarly a citizenry that allows the persecution of a minority group within their nation doesn’t get to call themselves the good guys. It doesn’t mean that they aren’t victims, it doesn’t mean they deserve whatever happens to them. It isn’t necessarily the case that in any given conflict one party is evil and one is good, it’s entirely possible and in fact probable that a conflict can be between an evil power and a slightly less evil power. Was Saddam the good guy? Nope, he was an evil monster. Was Bush the good guy? Nope, he was an evil monster. Were the Iraqi people the good guys? Well enough of them supported Saddam to keep him in power and they were pretty good at killing each other over sectarian issues so no, not particularly. Was the American public the good guys? Nope we bought the lies hook, line, and sinker and supported Bush and the war. We shrugged it off when our leaders used drone strikes on weddings and when our allies used weapons we gave them to take out school buses. Maybe worse than that (because at least those are foreigners) we allowed our government to order drone strikes on American citizens without trial. (To be fair to Bush, that was Obama, another evil monster.)
Germany wrongly invaded Russia in 1941, that didn’t make Stalin a good guy.
I have a lot of sympathy for the average Ukrainian. Heck I even have sympathy for the Azov battalion and the neo-Nazis, better dead than red is a statement I 100% endorse. I definitely wouldn’t want to be annexed by Russia, I know about the Holodomor. But I also have sympathy for the everyday Germans who got killed in WWII. I have sympathy for the Japanese civilians in Hiroshima. I have sympathy for the Soviets trapped in Stalingrad. I have sympathy for the Ukrainians whose churches have been closed down by the Ukrainian government because they are Russian Orthodox. But my feelings of sympathy do not make them “good guys”, my feelings of sympathy do not absolve them of their national sins. The war in Ukraine is predominantly Christian Russians killing predominantly Christian Ukrainians primarily over the actions of predominantly Christian America. We have let our governments convince us to kill our brothers and sisters in Christ so that they can gain wealth and power. Russian, Ukrainian, American, we are not the good guys.
Couple things:
"More than 3400 civilians were killed in Donbas from 2014 to Dec 2021, if getting killed isn’t persecution I’m not sure what is."
That's a war that Russia started by invading Ukraine with "little green men" they denied were there. For example, Russia killed 283 people when it shot down MH17. Also of note: Russia killed ten times that in one month alone in Oblast it "claims". It Dnipro it killed almost 30 people when an anti ship missile struck an apartment building, caught on camera.
The OCIE recorded only about 14 people killed in Donbass in all of 2021. Where are you getting your numbers from, a .ru address? Let's look at the OCIE numbers and figures for hostile fire for 2021.
"To put it To get some idea of the persecution the ethnic Russians have faced, I suggest watching “The Battle for Ukraine Frontline” on FRONTLINE PBS on YouTube. "
How did "Ethnic Russians' get in Ukraine? Russia forcibly deported the original occupants and replaced them with Russian speakers. Zelenskyy himself is a Russian speaker and Russia has been trying to kill him for the last 15 months. That's persecution right there. Putin has killed more Ethnic Russians through his war than Ukraine has killed by over 1000k times. Easy. Look at the casualty counts for the LPR and DPR troops used as meat shields.
"I never said that Russia or Putin were in the right, I explicitly said nobody is a good guy. I never claimed that Putin was invading to free the ethnic Russians or that he cares about them. "
You did that in the above post, literally. You've parroted his propaganda quite a bit. You've spent the entire 8 paragraph or so post justifying Putin's invasion while denying you are.
"My point was that a government that installs itself via foreign backed coup, persecutes a minority group within its borders, enriches itself while its citizens are killed, and acts in the interests of those who put it in power rather than in the people of their country doesn’t get to claim they are the good guys, regardless of the circumstance they find themselves in."
So Russia when it claims it owns Ukraine and that when Ukraine kicks out the Russian backed oppressors (Remember, the russian backed president took off with billions and is living the high life in Russia) it's the bad guy, correct?
" Similarly a citizenry that allows the persecution of a minority group within their nation doesn’t get to call themselves the good guys. "
That's Russia, literally. Putin has been obsessed with Ukraine and even wrote a paper about it and how it belongs to Russia and Ukrainian identity, culture, and language does not exist. 15,000 children have been forcibly deported to Russia to be "adopted" by Russian families where they are forced to shed their Ukrainian heritage, language, and identity.
When Russia comes into a town it brings in the FSB to torture, root out veterans, local politicians, and problematic people. That's who was in the mass graves found in Kharkiv and Izium and Bucha.
"I have a lot of sympathy for the average Ukrainian. "
You actually don't. You want them to live under a government that doesn't care and wants to extinguish them and their culture, language, and identity.
"I definitely wouldn’t want to be annexed by Russia."
You've literally swallowed their propaganda. That's doubtful. Feel free to get a covid vaccine since it's supported by putin and mandated by him.
"I know about the Holodomor."
Who did the Holodmor? Where did the orders come from? Moscow, the Kremlin, and the politburo.
"I have sympathy for the Ukrainians whose churches have been closed down by the Ukrainian government because they are Russian Orthodox. "
No, you don't.
Why were those "churches" shut down and why did those "priests" have Russian passports, Russian propaganda, and aid Russian agents? That's not called being a church, it's called being a foreign agent.
Am I allowed to setup a church in Russia and secretly support Pro-Ukraine messages, agents, and push their propaganda? Why not? If I'm shut down does that mean Russia is attacking the church?
Ask yourself why Patrick Kuril, the head patriarch of the Russian orthodox church, has a 40k dollar watch and works for the Russian FSB. Don't ask me, do the research.
"The war in Ukraine is predominantly Christian Russians killing predominantly Christian Ukrainians primarily over the actions of predominantly Christian America. "
Actually, no.
This is Putin attempting to use the weakness in America to his advantage and take Ukraine for his own, once and for all. That's why there was so many jack booted thugs in the Russian formations, such as the SOBR (They got brutalized and whacked, by the way). He never expected Ukraine to fight so hard and fully planned for this to be over in a few days.
This entire war is the fault of Putin and Russia, not Ukraine or the west. Ukraine has the right to make it's own decisions. Your neighbor does not have the right to kick in your door and make you get a covid shot. Or does he?
We have let our governments convince us to kill our brothers and sisters in Christ so that they can gain wealth and power. Russian, Ukrainian, American, we are not the good guys.
We are the good guys. Feel free to project your weakness and willingness to surrender. I won't.
I stood against evil with Biden's mandates. I still support Ukraine today and our friends and allies there fighting the good fight to save their nation.
Remember: Russia declared victory 452 days ago on February 26th, 2022. It's now May 23rd, 2023. Ukraine turned the tides and just invaded Russia and seized Belgorod.
It's time for Putin to surrender Belgorod oblast to Ukraine and sign a peace deal and stop being a war monger. They also conducted a referendum and 110% of the residents voted to join Ukraine with the voting being conducted by the Ukrainian army.
Funny how that works. It worked for Donetsk, Luhansk, Zap, and Kherson oblast. Works for belgorod.
I support missionairies in Ukraine and they have no problems preaching the gospel and running a children's camp. Russian missiles have over flown them in Mikolaiv and landed near their camp.
Russia will shut them down if they can.
I've been out in the field for the last week.
Frankly you sound like my toddler, these guys are my guys so they are the good guys. I notice that you didn’t watch the video and find any inaccuracies in it. Instead you just claim that Putin is worse. You claim that despite the fact that I have repeatedly said that there are no good guys and that includes Putin that I am supporting Putin by pushing Russian propaganda. I would be interested to see how Putin infiltrated PBS in 2014, or how he controlled the US media prior to 2022.
Speaking Russian doesn’t make one ethnically Russian. I speak Spanish, doesn’t make me Mexican. I have no love for the Russian Orthodox Church the actions of the leadership under the Soviets was inexcusable. However regardless of the actions of the leadership there are heartfelt believers on a local level whose ability to live out their faith has been destroyed by the government.
I agree that the Ukrainians have a right to determine their own future however that means free from American interference as well as Russian interference. Furthermore they shouldn’t have the right to American resources.
Putin is a bad guy. Zelensky is a bad guy. Biden is a bad guy. The Russian people are victims of this conflict. The Ukrainian people are victims of this conflict. The American people are victims of this conflict. But none of us are innocent victims. We all hold responsibility for our complicity with the evil actions of our own governments as well as with allowing injustice within our own borders because we have the luxury of ignoring it.
“Feel free to project your weakness and willingness to surrender. I won't.” Fuck you. My family already sacrificed in the name of this God forsaken US government when my husband took a bullet to the face in Iraq. He will be paying for our last attempt at playing the good guy every single day for the rest of his life. I will be paying for it. Our children will pay for it. Our children’s children will be paying for it. His best friends served and their families will be paying for it. My best friend and her family will be paying for it because her husband served. So fuck you. Fuck you for continuing to support a government that sent my husband and hundreds of thousands of other patriots to war based on a lie. And fuck you for trying to push and support a war that we have no business engaging in, that was heavily influenced by the same turds that got us into Iraq. And fuck you for claiming that because I don’t want to send my son to take a bullet to the face in Kiyv and because I don’t want my tax dollars to be used to kill some other woman’s husband or son in Donetsk, that is somehow weakness and a willingness to surrender. If you actually believe the propaganda that we had nothing to do with the coup then at best this conflict is none of our business and not our problem. We should be ignoring it the same way we ignore the constant killing in Africa. (Bet you don’t care in the least that we aren’t helping South Sudan protect itself against Sudan.)
If you think Ukrainians have the right to sovereignty (which I do) then it should be entirely up to them to defend said sovereignty. If they have to rely on the US for protection then they aren’t sovereign, they are American interests. The Ukrainian people are not strong enough to be sovereign, they are either going to be controlled by Russia or controlled by the US. Let’s say your wildest dreams come true and Putin lays down arms today and victory is declared and Ukraine “wins”. The US has “given” Ukraine more than $110 billion in support to fight this war. Do you think that’s a gift or an investment? The first time a conflict comes up between the interests of the Ukrainian people and the Biden administration who do you think Zelensky will support? Before this war and before he was even President, Biden bragged about the level of control he had over Ukrainian politics, you think $110 billion doesn’t buy complete loyalty and acquiescence? Living under the American boot is undoubtedly better than living under the Russian boot but let’s not pretend that sovereignty is on the table.
If you want to go fight and die in Ukraine and tell yourself that makes you some sort of hero then go for it. But I have no interest in paying for another CIA created conflict either financially or personally, I’m too busy paying for the last one.