The point I make is that there ARE a cafeteria-style assortment of religions and gods that are available for us all to choose from... not only the usual suspects, judaism, christianity, islam (each of which has several to MANY significant variations within, different sects, etc), buddhism, hinduism... native American tribal mythology, sh…
The point I make is that there ARE a cafeteria-style assortment of religions and gods that are available for us all to choose from... not only the usual suspects, judaism, christianity, islam (each of which has several to MANY significant variations within, different sects, etc), buddhism, hinduism... native American tribal mythology, shintoism... on and on...
YOU seem to have the similar arrogance (sorry, it IS arrogance) to claim that it is a FACT that there is only one way to "God"... YOUR way. Do all of the rest of the many billions of humans burn in hellfire? Do you realize that the "bible" which you follow (his "plan"?), who knows which of MANY versions you use... has been revised again and again, books added and deleted and the translations of the original writings that became the "bible"... have been massively corrupted for the purpose of power and control over the "sheep"?
Read Biglino's "The Naked Bible"... he translates those original writings... and I strongly assume... that even if you deign to read it... you will deny it any credibility whatsoever... and cling with great fervor and anger... to the mythology that YOU have chosen... and steadfastly deny and condemn all others.... just like THEY do to YOURS... and as you say... "of course mess everything up again and wind up bombing each other, killing, etc..."
It's not my way. It's God's way. He created the universe. He specified a way of reconciliation. To me, it's more than arrogant to say, "No, I don't like that way! It's too narrow! I want 17 more ways, so I can choose, and I'd prefer one that lets me do things MY way." You have the ability to reject the path offered to you. It's entirely your choice.
Understand that the Bible doesn't say things or instruct us to do things a certain way in order to be arbitrary and overbearing, but because it's the truth. If you follow this way of living, your life will be much better because God guides you away from the things that destroy you. I can reject the law of gravity, for example, and I will still splatter myself all over the pavement if I jump off a tall building. The reaction to a warning not to jump should not be, "Who are you to tell me what to do, bigot?" but "Thanks for telling me."
Without being tedious, I have studied the efforts to pick apart the Bible. It's a historical document. It wasn't originally written in English, so it does require translation. Our translating skills have improved over the centuries, and that's why different versions emerge. The English language itself has evolved, to the point that few people still say things like "thee" and thou,," even though that was normal when King James provided a translation. All these differences have not changed the "guts" of the Bible, though, just clarified some details. It's an ancient document, and has been authenticated more than most.
As you know, there's not much that is susceptible of "absolute" proof. Even courts use standards such as "more probable than not" in civil cases and "beyond a reasonable doubt" in criminal cases. So many things in life require faith, such as sitting in a chair and believing, with no evidence, that it won't collapse; eating food in a restaurant and assuming it isn't poisoned; driving a car and trusting that other drivers won't run into your head-on. I make my best judgment based on available facts.
As far as Hell, no one has to go there. It's your choice, and if you don't believe it exists, you have nothing at all to be concerned about. No one "sends" you there. God doesn't want you there, and I don't either.
I'm not sure you realize that you are supporting my point... you claim to have the ONLY truth... the only path, the only "way of reconciliation". You must realize, that the many billions that believe that THEY have the only truth think that YOU are just as deluded as you think THEY are!
Odd that "God" would allow such confusion... no? Do you think those billions of people devout and strong in THEIR beliefs, which are totally opposed to YOUR beliefs... are all what, evil? confused? Misled by "Satan"?? Bound for eternal damnation?
And Hell is a choice... follow YOUR path or burn? So many billions headed to the pit, eh? WOW! Is the Book of Mormon scripture? How about the Gnostic Gospels? Both "christian", yes? Are Jews hell-bound? They do not believe in your ONE path to salvation... right?
You claim that the bible is an historical document... perhaps the old testament does have many stories that can be tied to geographical areas... but why not read Biglino and see what an experienced translator came up with? Then you can point out where you disagree... even scoff at him... surely your faith is strong enough to withstand another's translation of the original "scriptures"? Which are now, in a far different form... your "bible"?
Do you think the majority is always right? We just take a vote and the minority will always be wrong? Maybe I should get more yard signs so I can increase the popularity of truth.
Do you believe in the existence of absolutes? I believe I can't change the truth just because it isn't popular enough. I didn't take the covid vax, either, and it didn't bother me at all that almost no one agreed with me.
Yes, there is ONE way, whether anyone else believes it or not -- but I'm not the only person who thinks so. If I'm drowning and someone throws me a life preserver, I'm not going to start complaining about the design, the material, the brand, and the color, and why a wider selection wasn't presented so I could choose one that's more to my liking.
I read a lot, and right now I have a big stack ahead of the one you think I should read. I'll get to it, but I can't tell you when.
I wonder about your basic assumptions. Do you believe there is a God? Or is this just a fictional character we can make up like characters in a novel?
You have mentioned Hell several times. Do you believe in Hell? Do you believe in Heaven?
I don't think you'd like Heaven, because it would be full of people who believe everything you disagree with. But you do have that option. One fact about his design of the universe is that God left human beings with free will. Hell (whether or not you believe in it) isn't what God wants for you.
Do you think that any devout believer in any of the array of other "religions"/mythologies that are totally different than yours feel any different about theirs than you do about yours?
No, you can't change the "truth" because it isn't popular enough... you can't change it because you, like all humans, have no idea of what the "truth" really is... sure, you, and all the devout of all "religions" SAY they know... SHOUT it even... post their beliefs all over the internet hoping they earn "God-points"... but deep inside, if they have much of an intellect and are honest with themselves... they don't. That's why "faith" is necessary. Faith in things unseen and unknowable...
Example... I believe (have faith that) there is intelligent life on other planets... given the incomprehensible size of the universe... but I don't see any and can't KNOW this.
My faith in this can be ardent, rock-solid, even zealous... but still there is no proof. Do YOU think aliens have embraced human "christianity"? Do you deny aliens might exist? Are they all damned to hell if they do exist?
No, I do not "believe" in heaven or hell... I hope that IF there is a "God" that IT (not, of course "He") is not like the ones christians believe in... cruel, heartless and even sadistic. How else would you describe an entity that judges then condemns MANY billions of its own creations to eternal torment, after designing them with the very characteristics that would lead them to condemnation (lust, greed, anger, dishonesty, etc)???
I don't believe that we have free will either... will to do what? Do you think that by their "will" humans are fat, ugly, poor, stupid, failures, diseased, depressed, anxious, abused, raped, murdered... etc. etc??
"Heaven" will be full of "people" Physical people? People who "believe" in everything I disagree with? Would they HATE me...?? If I was in "heaven" (how could I be, given my lack of faith?), would I not KNOW the truth of all things? Would not all the other "people" at that point also be totally enlightened and not need to "believe" in anything, but would KNOW? Or hate anyone, as all would KNOW the truth? What do you think heaven would be like? And if you don't know, why don;t you know?
Do I believe in "God"? No... not any that any religion I know of has offered...
Could there be a great power... an entity responsible for the creation of the universe... its design, characteristics, potential for ever evolving into continually changing facets of existence?
Sure... could be. But I am intellectually honest and can say... "I don't know".
Don;t you think I wish I could have a rock-solid belief in a "God" that via prayer or some other relationship/interaction would help me, heal me, guide me and enlighten me... even (gasp) LOVE me?
Sure. It would be like MAGIC. But I am unaware of such and believe that no other human ever has been.
And pretending that there is just doesn't work for me.
As far as I have been able to determine, no other religious leader, prophet, or founder has claimed to be the only way to God. I don't claim to know all truth, but I know some. I am not looking for "God-points," and there is no such thing. I don't think anyone knows whether other parts of the universe are inhabited. It seems to me that you are taking the worst human characteristics and attributing them to God. If people refuse to acknowledge God or do even one thing he tells us to do, how can they blame God that the world's a mess? What we know about God has been revealed: in our physical universe, all of creation; in Jesus, who was God in the flesh, and in the Bible. If you are dead set against all of that, you won't ever know. If you want to be brave, just throw out a prayer to God, tell him you don't think he exists, and ask him to let you know if you're wrong. There's a book written by an English college professor in 1943 and he answers some of the basic questions you ask. If you want to read it, there's a pdf here: https://tinyurl.com/35n4rr8f
As for Heaven, I'll find out when I get there. God has all knowledge, and we don't. We are created, but God has always existed. He is what the philosophers would call "The Unmoved Mover." There is evidence of God's existence everywhere I look. There's a documentary that addresses this, and I think it's relaxing to watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAH8suospuc
I can't look at the complexity and beauty of creation without seeing God's intelligent design, power, artistry, creativity, sense of humor, kindness, generosity, and extravagant provision for the people he created. It requires some kind of magical thinking to believe all of this just "happened."
Jesus said: I am the way, the truth and the life." So, yes, that's the truth I know. This is not something I made up; it's what God said. But you don't acknowledge God's existence, and your choice is something God will not override. Best to you, friend.
Does that mean you will not read Biglino? Not a big surprise... is your faith so much weaker than your words? Why not see if "God" really said that? And no, you do not "know".
I don't acknowledge YOUR "God's" existence... you follow one of so many mythologies... and yet, despite the billions of good, faithful people who do not believe as YOU do... you again expose your arrogance (and fear) in trying to convince yourself that YOUR "truth" is the ONLY "truth".
But I don't wish to continue poking holes in your weak faith... I just don't KNOW what form the "Creator" or "Creation" takes... I cannot force myself as you do, to believe in something I know is not THE truth. You can. If that makes you happy, who am I to try to awaken you to our birthright: Ignorance. We do not see through the glass darkly, though YOU claim to see everything so clearly... we actually can't see at all.
I do sometimes ponder... what if I had the power of your "God", as you claim that "Jesus" had... would I heal some... change some water into wine at a party... even raise one or two dead?
Or would I transform the entire world... bringing health, happiness and peace and, if necessary, forgiveness... to all... I would banish death and fear, turmoil and war... I would turn all of humanity into blissful, loving brothers and sisters and let them live for eternity in serenity and love. But, of course, that is a child's dream... no?
I can hope... I can even pray to whatever it is that has made myself and the universe... do I think that this may be a personal and loving "God"? Looking at the corrupt, hateful mess the world is in today, with so many innocents dying, crime, betrayal and evil rampaging... sickness throughout the globe... and this may be a small thing, compared to what may be coming:
The point I make is that there ARE a cafeteria-style assortment of religions and gods that are available for us all to choose from... not only the usual suspects, judaism, christianity, islam (each of which has several to MANY significant variations within, different sects, etc), buddhism, hinduism... native American tribal mythology, shintoism... on and on...
YOU seem to have the similar arrogance (sorry, it IS arrogance) to claim that it is a FACT that there is only one way to "God"... YOUR way. Do all of the rest of the many billions of humans burn in hellfire? Do you realize that the "bible" which you follow (his "plan"?), who knows which of MANY versions you use... has been revised again and again, books added and deleted and the translations of the original writings that became the "bible"... have been massively corrupted for the purpose of power and control over the "sheep"?
Read Biglino's "The Naked Bible"... he translates those original writings... and I strongly assume... that even if you deign to read it... you will deny it any credibility whatsoever... and cling with great fervor and anger... to the mythology that YOU have chosen... and steadfastly deny and condemn all others.... just like THEY do to YOURS... and as you say... "of course mess everything up again and wind up bombing each other, killing, etc..."
Are we still pals? 😉 💕
It's not my way. It's God's way. He created the universe. He specified a way of reconciliation. To me, it's more than arrogant to say, "No, I don't like that way! It's too narrow! I want 17 more ways, so I can choose, and I'd prefer one that lets me do things MY way." You have the ability to reject the path offered to you. It's entirely your choice.
Understand that the Bible doesn't say things or instruct us to do things a certain way in order to be arbitrary and overbearing, but because it's the truth. If you follow this way of living, your life will be much better because God guides you away from the things that destroy you. I can reject the law of gravity, for example, and I will still splatter myself all over the pavement if I jump off a tall building. The reaction to a warning not to jump should not be, "Who are you to tell me what to do, bigot?" but "Thanks for telling me."
Without being tedious, I have studied the efforts to pick apart the Bible. It's a historical document. It wasn't originally written in English, so it does require translation. Our translating skills have improved over the centuries, and that's why different versions emerge. The English language itself has evolved, to the point that few people still say things like "thee" and thou,," even though that was normal when King James provided a translation. All these differences have not changed the "guts" of the Bible, though, just clarified some details. It's an ancient document, and has been authenticated more than most.
As you know, there's not much that is susceptible of "absolute" proof. Even courts use standards such as "more probable than not" in civil cases and "beyond a reasonable doubt" in criminal cases. So many things in life require faith, such as sitting in a chair and believing, with no evidence, that it won't collapse; eating food in a restaurant and assuming it isn't poisoned; driving a car and trusting that other drivers won't run into your head-on. I make my best judgment based on available facts.
As far as Hell, no one has to go there. It's your choice, and if you don't believe it exists, you have nothing at all to be concerned about. No one "sends" you there. God doesn't want you there, and I don't either.
Of course we're friends!
I'm not sure you realize that you are supporting my point... you claim to have the ONLY truth... the only path, the only "way of reconciliation". You must realize, that the many billions that believe that THEY have the only truth think that YOU are just as deluded as you think THEY are!
Odd that "God" would allow such confusion... no? Do you think those billions of people devout and strong in THEIR beliefs, which are totally opposed to YOUR beliefs... are all what, evil? confused? Misled by "Satan"?? Bound for eternal damnation?
And Hell is a choice... follow YOUR path or burn? So many billions headed to the pit, eh? WOW! Is the Book of Mormon scripture? How about the Gnostic Gospels? Both "christian", yes? Are Jews hell-bound? They do not believe in your ONE path to salvation... right?
You claim that the bible is an historical document... perhaps the old testament does have many stories that can be tied to geographical areas... but why not read Biglino and see what an experienced translator came up with? Then you can point out where you disagree... even scoff at him... surely your faith is strong enough to withstand another's translation of the original "scriptures"? Which are now, in a far different form... your "bible"?
https://zoboko.com/read/the-naked-bible-xwp818yn?hash=f8d3715d54335e6d8f2f145744f65616
Glad we can still be pals... Pray for me, just in case your beliefs are correct and my lack of firm belief is damning!
Do you think the majority is always right? We just take a vote and the minority will always be wrong? Maybe I should get more yard signs so I can increase the popularity of truth.
Do you believe in the existence of absolutes? I believe I can't change the truth just because it isn't popular enough. I didn't take the covid vax, either, and it didn't bother me at all that almost no one agreed with me.
Yes, there is ONE way, whether anyone else believes it or not -- but I'm not the only person who thinks so. If I'm drowning and someone throws me a life preserver, I'm not going to start complaining about the design, the material, the brand, and the color, and why a wider selection wasn't presented so I could choose one that's more to my liking.
I read a lot, and right now I have a big stack ahead of the one you think I should read. I'll get to it, but I can't tell you when.
I wonder about your basic assumptions. Do you believe there is a God? Or is this just a fictional character we can make up like characters in a novel?
You have mentioned Hell several times. Do you believe in Hell? Do you believe in Heaven?
I don't think you'd like Heaven, because it would be full of people who believe everything you disagree with. But you do have that option. One fact about his design of the universe is that God left human beings with free will. Hell (whether or not you believe in it) isn't what God wants for you.
Do you think that any devout believer in any of the array of other "religions"/mythologies that are totally different than yours feel any different about theirs than you do about yours?
No, you can't change the "truth" because it isn't popular enough... you can't change it because you, like all humans, have no idea of what the "truth" really is... sure, you, and all the devout of all "religions" SAY they know... SHOUT it even... post their beliefs all over the internet hoping they earn "God-points"... but deep inside, if they have much of an intellect and are honest with themselves... they don't. That's why "faith" is necessary. Faith in things unseen and unknowable...
Example... I believe (have faith that) there is intelligent life on other planets... given the incomprehensible size of the universe... but I don't see any and can't KNOW this.
My faith in this can be ardent, rock-solid, even zealous... but still there is no proof. Do YOU think aliens have embraced human "christianity"? Do you deny aliens might exist? Are they all damned to hell if they do exist?
No, I do not "believe" in heaven or hell... I hope that IF there is a "God" that IT (not, of course "He") is not like the ones christians believe in... cruel, heartless and even sadistic. How else would you describe an entity that judges then condemns MANY billions of its own creations to eternal torment, after designing them with the very characteristics that would lead them to condemnation (lust, greed, anger, dishonesty, etc)???
I don't believe that we have free will either... will to do what? Do you think that by their "will" humans are fat, ugly, poor, stupid, failures, diseased, depressed, anxious, abused, raped, murdered... etc. etc??
"Heaven" will be full of "people" Physical people? People who "believe" in everything I disagree with? Would they HATE me...?? If I was in "heaven" (how could I be, given my lack of faith?), would I not KNOW the truth of all things? Would not all the other "people" at that point also be totally enlightened and not need to "believe" in anything, but would KNOW? Or hate anyone, as all would KNOW the truth? What do you think heaven would be like? And if you don't know, why don;t you know?
Do I believe in "God"? No... not any that any religion I know of has offered...
Could there be a great power... an entity responsible for the creation of the universe... its design, characteristics, potential for ever evolving into continually changing facets of existence?
Sure... could be. But I am intellectually honest and can say... "I don't know".
Don;t you think I wish I could have a rock-solid belief in a "God" that via prayer or some other relationship/interaction would help me, heal me, guide me and enlighten me... even (gasp) LOVE me?
Sure. It would be like MAGIC. But I am unaware of such and believe that no other human ever has been.
And pretending that there is just doesn't work for me.
As far as I have been able to determine, no other religious leader, prophet, or founder has claimed to be the only way to God. I don't claim to know all truth, but I know some. I am not looking for "God-points," and there is no such thing. I don't think anyone knows whether other parts of the universe are inhabited. It seems to me that you are taking the worst human characteristics and attributing them to God. If people refuse to acknowledge God or do even one thing he tells us to do, how can they blame God that the world's a mess? What we know about God has been revealed: in our physical universe, all of creation; in Jesus, who was God in the flesh, and in the Bible. If you are dead set against all of that, you won't ever know. If you want to be brave, just throw out a prayer to God, tell him you don't think he exists, and ask him to let you know if you're wrong. There's a book written by an English college professor in 1943 and he answers some of the basic questions you ask. If you want to read it, there's a pdf here: https://tinyurl.com/35n4rr8f
As for Heaven, I'll find out when I get there. God has all knowledge, and we don't. We are created, but God has always existed. He is what the philosophers would call "The Unmoved Mover." There is evidence of God's existence everywhere I look. There's a documentary that addresses this, and I think it's relaxing to watch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAH8suospuc
I can't look at the complexity and beauty of creation without seeing God's intelligent design, power, artistry, creativity, sense of humor, kindness, generosity, and extravagant provision for the people he created. It requires some kind of magical thinking to believe all of this just "happened."
You are dancing around the obvious... your insistence that YOU know the TRUTH... the ONLY truth...
But I would think we both tire of this, so lets leave it at this... Let me know when you have completed reading the Biglino book I sent a link to...
Then I'll be happy to read the link you just sent.
Jesus said: I am the way, the truth and the life." So, yes, that's the truth I know. This is not something I made up; it's what God said. But you don't acknowledge God's existence, and your choice is something God will not override. Best to you, friend.
Does that mean you will not read Biglino? Not a big surprise... is your faith so much weaker than your words? Why not see if "God" really said that? And no, you do not "know".
I don't acknowledge YOUR "God's" existence... you follow one of so many mythologies... and yet, despite the billions of good, faithful people who do not believe as YOU do... you again expose your arrogance (and fear) in trying to convince yourself that YOUR "truth" is the ONLY "truth".
But I don't wish to continue poking holes in your weak faith... I just don't KNOW what form the "Creator" or "Creation" takes... I cannot force myself as you do, to believe in something I know is not THE truth. You can. If that makes you happy, who am I to try to awaken you to our birthright: Ignorance. We do not see through the glass darkly, though YOU claim to see everything so clearly... we actually can't see at all.
I do sometimes ponder... what if I had the power of your "God", as you claim that "Jesus" had... would I heal some... change some water into wine at a party... even raise one or two dead?
Or would I transform the entire world... bringing health, happiness and peace and, if necessary, forgiveness... to all... I would banish death and fear, turmoil and war... I would turn all of humanity into blissful, loving brothers and sisters and let them live for eternity in serenity and love. But, of course, that is a child's dream... no?
I can hope... I can even pray to whatever it is that has made myself and the universe... do I think that this may be a personal and loving "God"? Looking at the corrupt, hateful mess the world is in today, with so many innocents dying, crime, betrayal and evil rampaging... sickness throughout the globe... and this may be a small thing, compared to what may be coming:
https://slaynews.com/news/renowned-scientist-all-covid-vaxxed-will-die-3-5-years/
What will you say to your merciful, loving "God" if this comes to pass?
So long, Pal... I hope you find happiness.