My family member was just killed by surgery to remove a tumor that the doctors *believed* would become malignant. The narrative is that he died “due to complications from surgery.” No, the doctors and hospital killed him.
My family member was just killed by surgery to remove a tumor that the doctors *believed* would become malignant. The narrative is that he died “due to complications from surgery.” No, the doctors and hospital killed him.
My journey of extreme skepticism of the medical monopoly, & bureaucracy etc began in 1986. A team of supposedly well-respected nephrologists wanted “exploratory surgery” for my mom who was 66 at the time. She had a blocked kidney & thankfully I had the presence of mind to stand firm for less invasive procedures (a stent in the “kinked” ureter did the trick.) I was blessed to have her for another 30 years to age 96. Also, I had at the time a very knowledgeable & brilliant Applied Kinesiologist who had some very astute interventions that I should inquire of the surgeons before they did what they do. (I was so naive - his statement that surgeon’s are “knife happy” was an eye-opener). I am thankful for surgeon’s who do perform amazing, “necessary” life-saving surgery. It is the corporatist hospital system that is so destructive because it IS big business. And, of course, Bigg Harmass has contributed to our health systems’ demise.
Not for profit hospitals get huge deals from the government if they agree to do some gratis work in the community they are located. Their books show that money coming in is used for payroll, improvements, and additions. A little extra book work for big benefits.
Hospice is often a sanitized comforting form of euthanizing via water and food deprivation and pain killing administration. Why NOT just legalize it and end the pretend means to the same end? I'm not saying it's evil nor that we just give a family member a prescription to administer it; just a cautionary commentary and a rhetorical question. It's something most all of us must confront and proceed through. Perhaps in the whole of humanity's history we are at the very BEST place for this? I wrestle some however. I don't have THE answer but don't suggest that really anyone does i just recoiled some with the pat answers and conversations from the hospice center employee(s). But i wouldn't desire that occupation as a full time long term career either.
It may seem to be just that but when a person is dying they don’t need to eat. Even when a person dies at home they aren’t interested in food. My mom died in hospice. A couple of weeks before she went to hospice she had no interest in food. In hospice, fluids were provided intravenously along with pain meds and undoubtedly sedatives to ease the anxiety. My BIL died at home using hospice and without the pain meds it would have been horrible to deal with for my SIL. My uncle is at home now with hospice and while he’s still able to eat he has no appetite. He’s been supplied with pain meds when he needs them but is not looking forward to “needing” them. While we all will suffer to a lesser or greater degree, it seems only humane to ease the pain and passage of our loved ones. I’m thankful I didn’t have to see my mom writhing in pain.
Interesting, because my SIL told my MIL on the way to Hospice that this was it, there was no coming out again. My MIL was super thin, but her main problem was from a stroke she had years before and she could not really speak coherently. It took her two weeks to die and they said she was not allowed food or drink, although they did swipe a moist sponge on a stick through her mouth once in a while. My hubby and sisters sat there and sang and held her hand and thought it was all fine. I had to leave, I could not witness the long slow (and what must have been angonizing internally) death march. I feel to this day it was planned and sanctioned societal murder. Horrifying.
Oh dear. That’s not a pleasant thought. I know of people who have come home from hospice so it doesn’t have to be the end. It might have to do with the state or country’s laws regarding hospice care. One of my friends was in hospice with what she thought was a life-threatening illness - it was not cancer. On Christmas Eve one year, she was not happy with what they were doing for her and/or giving her. She was told before she went to hospice, they would be able to give her some meds she could not get anywhere else. So, she checked herself out and went to an ER. There was some grumbling from the hospital. Once you’re in hospice, technically, you are signed off of other insurance plans. In any case, an alert ER physician heard her conversation with the admitting nurse, agreed to treat her and she is still living today.
I had an aunt who had similar symptoms to your MIL- 3 little strokes in a row which left her handicapped with a speech impediment. She died at home, thankfully. But the scene you describe is something I would not have wanted to witness either. If she was still able to eat, then I agree that it was more like euthanasia.
In a discussion on Catholic radio sometime ago, it was said that after ‘entering hospice’, if the patient or their family insisted on stopping the process, they would not be accepted by Hospice again.
I’m glad we’re talking about this. I want to know more.
I think if I had anyone in my family that was nearing hospice treatment, I’d be doing some research. There must be policies written in the law on a state by state basis. I can’t remember if denying hospice in the future once you sign out was an issue for my friend here in Florida. It seems to me that even in the dying process one would have some bodily autonomy. We have Living Wills that dictate what treatment we will accept or not accept. Then again, it may depend upon what sort of treatment hospice will afford you. Will it be caring for the dying in a humane and pain free way or for someone like my friend who needs certain treatment not given in any other institution. (That always seemed a bit odd to me.) And, I don’t think I’ve heard about food trollies rolling down the halIs either. I believe hospice in Florida is paid for by Medicare. I never received a bill. Hmm. Here is me wearing my conspiracy shoes. Maybe hospice is refused payment by the state if the patient doesn’t die there.
When the patient stops being able to swallow, they do not force food or fluid orally. If a Hospice patient begins to improve, they are discharged from the Hospice program because there are a limited number of days allowed by Medicare. They are able to restart the program if the patient needs it later.
Your experience sounds like mine. I get not forcing food. I do not like the totally doped up state I saw. Basically the hospital staff didn’t have to do anything other than administer the morphine regularly. The catheter bag never came close to filling up and thus needing attention during the several days I was there. My brother was never moved.
Dying is a pretty important process of transitioning. I want awareness and I am willing to endure some pain as a trade off.
Amen, it's an internal struggle of my own coming to terms with the entirety of the process and the systems we've instituted along with it; watching a loved one decline and suffer and being unable to help is a difficult reality.
So right. I just read an account of a British caregiver who was distraught over how the elderly she was caring for were given an inordinate amount of midozolam (sedative) which in some opinions actually slows the heart rate. This was during the scamdemic making it even more egregious. IDK, if anything will ever be resolved in that situation. However, If we have loved ones enduring these endings, I think it incumbent on us to be vigilant. Not to mention taking care to set plans in place for ourselves.
i'm not applying anything universally; assisting in the dying/exiting process is noble especially when immediate and loving family is involved. Yes it's not a pretty or peaceful process esp with pain and suffering and the nonstop attention and care required
The hospital sent my father home. He could not be helped as his organs were failing. The standard procedure is sedation with morphine at a level not quite high enough to kill. He had that “morphine mask” - eyes and mouth wide open and the fear he was experiencing was palpable. He was with us for two days in that state. When he died, and this is going to sound strange, on the following day he spoke to me as I was just about to leave for his wake. Here is what he said... “Please stay with me just for a little while. I am confused and alone. You can’t sleep here. Just stay with me.“ From this I surmised that when we die in a drug induced state it disturbs the breaking away process. It makes it harder for the soul to leave the physical body and understand what has happened. I got the sense he wasn’t sure if he was actually dead or still experiencing the strange effects of the suspended space the drugs had created. Later, through a series of visions/visits I had with him I know that he found his way.
thank you for this, it's very important that we connect on this issue and not succumb to disposable persons who are helpless and failing and deem their dignity and value to be less than human. Death comes for all, gay straight, rich, poor, Nationalist, Anti-Nationalist, Ukrainian or Russian, embryo or 100 year old, Hindu or Muslim. Grateful for your closure and shalom granted to your soul
‘I experienced this with an estranged, troubled destitute brother who had sustained a suspicious (to me) head wound. I arrived at the hospital to find him totally unresponsive due to morphine that was given anytime he made a move or sound. No water or food. He lived several days beyond the projected time of death. It killed me to see him this way.
But apparently there are different levels of hospice, due to one’s means I suppose. A fairly well off Priest that I know was declared to have gone into hospice care about 4 months ago and is yet alive. Obviously he receives nutrition and water. And people have visited him and he was fairly lucid.
The whole process is very disturbing to me. Particularly that it seems to be different for different classes of people.
some "patients" in this situation seem to cry out for their end while others seem to cry out to not want to be terminated in this fashion; it's not our realm of expertise so we tend to relinquish oversight and control to those who express kindness sympathy and the professional answers that dismiss our fears and questions and disarm our objections
Thank you, San. I am so angry. He was a fit 73 year old man who was very proactive about his health because he’s the sole caregiver for his disabled wife. I don’t know what will happen to her now because she’s incapable of living on her own. I’m 1,000 miles away so there’s not much I can do, especially since I refuse to fly with vaxxed pilots.
Good to hear you saved your mom from surgery trauma. My sister is a (now retired) nurse. She told me decades ago, “Don’t go to a surgeon unless you want surgery.”
San, you write: "thankfully I had the presence of mind to stand firm for less invasive procedures". Unfortunately the way the system works now, unless you have an advocate in your corner who can stand up to the doctors you are done. I am thankful that two years ago my wife was able to argue in my favor when I was in hospital for an operation.
Peter - you are sooo right- I became her advocate for 27 years. Thankful for anyone who is an advocate for better healthcare for their family or friends. Lord knows - they are so crucial nowadays
My 1st thought about D’Souza whose no problem disfiguring children for a false narrative built around a mental illness of gender dysphoria. With the right support with this disorder, we can keep these kids healthy and prevent suicidal ideation.
To them, everything has risks and benefits. They alleged that the risks were small and the benefit of not having a potentially cancerous tumor was immense. To them, this death is sad and unfortunate, but a very unfortunate risk that one must be willing to accept while hoping for a good outcome.
My daughter agreed to exploratory surgery after years of constant kidney issues. The urologist( who was there also) offered to take out an atrophied kidney ( that was still functioning) and “ clean up” her other kidney. These people are monsters. And whatever happened to DO NO HARM.
My family member was just killed by surgery to remove a tumor that the doctors *believed* would become malignant. The narrative is that he died “due to complications from surgery.” No, the doctors and hospital killed him.
Dee - I am so very sorry for your loss.
My journey of extreme skepticism of the medical monopoly, & bureaucracy etc began in 1986. A team of supposedly well-respected nephrologists wanted “exploratory surgery” for my mom who was 66 at the time. She had a blocked kidney & thankfully I had the presence of mind to stand firm for less invasive procedures (a stent in the “kinked” ureter did the trick.) I was blessed to have her for another 30 years to age 96. Also, I had at the time a very knowledgeable & brilliant Applied Kinesiologist who had some very astute interventions that I should inquire of the surgeons before they did what they do. (I was so naive - his statement that surgeon’s are “knife happy” was an eye-opener). I am thankful for surgeon’s who do perform amazing, “necessary” life-saving surgery. It is the corporatist hospital system that is so destructive because it IS big business. And, of course, Bigg Harmass has contributed to our health systems’ demise.
And don’t be fooled by “nonprofit” hospitals either. Hospitals are where people go to die.
and I don't believe there is such a thing as a non-profit hospital
Not for profit hospitals get huge deals from the government if they agree to do some gratis work in the community they are located. Their books show that money coming in is used for payroll, improvements, and additions. A little extra book work for big benefits.
Hospice is often a sanitized comforting form of euthanizing via water and food deprivation and pain killing administration. Why NOT just legalize it and end the pretend means to the same end? I'm not saying it's evil nor that we just give a family member a prescription to administer it; just a cautionary commentary and a rhetorical question. It's something most all of us must confront and proceed through. Perhaps in the whole of humanity's history we are at the very BEST place for this? I wrestle some however. I don't have THE answer but don't suggest that really anyone does i just recoiled some with the pat answers and conversations from the hospice center employee(s). But i wouldn't desire that occupation as a full time long term career either.
It may seem to be just that but when a person is dying they don’t need to eat. Even when a person dies at home they aren’t interested in food. My mom died in hospice. A couple of weeks before she went to hospice she had no interest in food. In hospice, fluids were provided intravenously along with pain meds and undoubtedly sedatives to ease the anxiety. My BIL died at home using hospice and without the pain meds it would have been horrible to deal with for my SIL. My uncle is at home now with hospice and while he’s still able to eat he has no appetite. He’s been supplied with pain meds when he needs them but is not looking forward to “needing” them. While we all will suffer to a lesser or greater degree, it seems only humane to ease the pain and passage of our loved ones. I’m thankful I didn’t have to see my mom writhing in pain.
Interesting, because my SIL told my MIL on the way to Hospice that this was it, there was no coming out again. My MIL was super thin, but her main problem was from a stroke she had years before and she could not really speak coherently. It took her two weeks to die and they said she was not allowed food or drink, although they did swipe a moist sponge on a stick through her mouth once in a while. My hubby and sisters sat there and sang and held her hand and thought it was all fine. I had to leave, I could not witness the long slow (and what must have been angonizing internally) death march. I feel to this day it was planned and sanctioned societal murder. Horrifying.
Oh dear. That’s not a pleasant thought. I know of people who have come home from hospice so it doesn’t have to be the end. It might have to do with the state or country’s laws regarding hospice care. One of my friends was in hospice with what she thought was a life-threatening illness - it was not cancer. On Christmas Eve one year, she was not happy with what they were doing for her and/or giving her. She was told before she went to hospice, they would be able to give her some meds she could not get anywhere else. So, she checked herself out and went to an ER. There was some grumbling from the hospital. Once you’re in hospice, technically, you are signed off of other insurance plans. In any case, an alert ER physician heard her conversation with the admitting nurse, agreed to treat her and she is still living today.
I had an aunt who had similar symptoms to your MIL- 3 little strokes in a row which left her handicapped with a speech impediment. She died at home, thankfully. But the scene you describe is something I would not have wanted to witness either. If she was still able to eat, then I agree that it was more like euthanasia.
In a discussion on Catholic radio sometime ago, it was said that after ‘entering hospice’, if the patient or their family insisted on stopping the process, they would not be accepted by Hospice again.
I’m glad we’re talking about this. I want to know more.
I think if I had anyone in my family that was nearing hospice treatment, I’d be doing some research. There must be policies written in the law on a state by state basis. I can’t remember if denying hospice in the future once you sign out was an issue for my friend here in Florida. It seems to me that even in the dying process one would have some bodily autonomy. We have Living Wills that dictate what treatment we will accept or not accept. Then again, it may depend upon what sort of treatment hospice will afford you. Will it be caring for the dying in a humane and pain free way or for someone like my friend who needs certain treatment not given in any other institution. (That always seemed a bit odd to me.) And, I don’t think I’ve heard about food trollies rolling down the halIs either. I believe hospice in Florida is paid for by Medicare. I never received a bill. Hmm. Here is me wearing my conspiracy shoes. Maybe hospice is refused payment by the state if the patient doesn’t die there.
When the patient stops being able to swallow, they do not force food or fluid orally. If a Hospice patient begins to improve, they are discharged from the Hospice program because there are a limited number of days allowed by Medicare. They are able to restart the program if the patient needs it later.
Your experience sounds like mine. I get not forcing food. I do not like the totally doped up state I saw. Basically the hospital staff didn’t have to do anything other than administer the morphine regularly. The catheter bag never came close to filling up and thus needing attention during the several days I was there. My brother was never moved.
Dying is a pretty important process of transitioning. I want awareness and I am willing to endure some pain as a trade off.
Amen, it's an internal struggle of my own coming to terms with the entirety of the process and the systems we've instituted along with it; watching a loved one decline and suffer and being unable to help is a difficult reality.
So right. I just read an account of a British caregiver who was distraught over how the elderly she was caring for were given an inordinate amount of midozolam (sedative) which in some opinions actually slows the heart rate. This was during the scamdemic making it even more egregious. IDK, if anything will ever be resolved in that situation. However, If we have loved ones enduring these endings, I think it incumbent on us to be vigilant. Not to mention taking care to set plans in place for ourselves.
WP William - have you ever helped a loved one die at home?
i'm not applying anything universally; assisting in the dying/exiting process is noble especially when immediate and loving family is involved. Yes it's not a pretty or peaceful process esp with pain and suffering and the nonstop attention and care required
The hospital sent my father home. He could not be helped as his organs were failing. The standard procedure is sedation with morphine at a level not quite high enough to kill. He had that “morphine mask” - eyes and mouth wide open and the fear he was experiencing was palpable. He was with us for two days in that state. When he died, and this is going to sound strange, on the following day he spoke to me as I was just about to leave for his wake. Here is what he said... “Please stay with me just for a little while. I am confused and alone. You can’t sleep here. Just stay with me.“ From this I surmised that when we die in a drug induced state it disturbs the breaking away process. It makes it harder for the soul to leave the physical body and understand what has happened. I got the sense he wasn’t sure if he was actually dead or still experiencing the strange effects of the suspended space the drugs had created. Later, through a series of visions/visits I had with him I know that he found his way.
thank you for this, it's very important that we connect on this issue and not succumb to disposable persons who are helpless and failing and deem their dignity and value to be less than human. Death comes for all, gay straight, rich, poor, Nationalist, Anti-Nationalist, Ukrainian or Russian, embryo or 100 year old, Hindu or Muslim. Grateful for your closure and shalom granted to your soul
‘I experienced this with an estranged, troubled destitute brother who had sustained a suspicious (to me) head wound. I arrived at the hospital to find him totally unresponsive due to morphine that was given anytime he made a move or sound. No water or food. He lived several days beyond the projected time of death. It killed me to see him this way.
But apparently there are different levels of hospice, due to one’s means I suppose. A fairly well off Priest that I know was declared to have gone into hospice care about 4 months ago and is yet alive. Obviously he receives nutrition and water. And people have visited him and he was fairly lucid.
The whole process is very disturbing to me. Particularly that it seems to be different for different classes of people.
some "patients" in this situation seem to cry out for their end while others seem to cry out to not want to be terminated in this fashion; it's not our realm of expertise so we tend to relinquish oversight and control to those who express kindness sympathy and the professional answers that dismiss our fears and questions and disarm our objections
My Grandma said that about hospitals!
Thank you, San. I am so angry. He was a fit 73 year old man who was very proactive about his health because he’s the sole caregiver for his disabled wife. I don’t know what will happen to her now because she’s incapable of living on her own. I’m 1,000 miles away so there’s not much I can do, especially since I refuse to fly with vaxxed pilots.
Good to hear you saved your mom from surgery trauma. My sister is a (now retired) nurse. She told me decades ago, “Don’t go to a surgeon unless you want surgery.”
💔
San, you write: "thankfully I had the presence of mind to stand firm for less invasive procedures". Unfortunately the way the system works now, unless you have an advocate in your corner who can stand up to the doctors you are done. I am thankful that two years ago my wife was able to argue in my favor when I was in hospital for an operation.
Peter - you are sooo right- I became her advocate for 27 years. Thankful for anyone who is an advocate for better healthcare for their family or friends. Lord knows - they are so crucial nowadays
Thank you, mzlizzi
I'm so sorry. Whatever happened to their mantra first do no harm?
'do no harm to their bank account'
They took the Hippocritic Oath😂
That went out the window a while ago. All about the money and following orders.
They left out the “no.”
My 1st thought about D’Souza whose no problem disfiguring children for a false narrative built around a mental illness of gender dysphoria. With the right support with this disorder, we can keep these kids healthy and prevent suicidal ideation.
Great idea Chelie but follow the money. That's the mantra.
Later Jay
Depends on one’s definition of “harm.”
To them, everything has risks and benefits. They alleged that the risks were small and the benefit of not having a potentially cancerous tumor was immense. To them, this death is sad and unfortunate, but a very unfortunate risk that one must be willing to accept while hoping for a good outcome.
That's awful. My thoughts and prayers 🙏 to you and your family. ❤️
My daughter agreed to exploratory surgery after years of constant kidney issues. The urologist( who was there also) offered to take out an atrophied kidney ( that was still functioning) and “ clean up” her other kidney. These people are monsters. And whatever happened to DO NO HARM.
Horrid. So sorry Dee.
I am so sorry! Medical malpractice (which comes in MANY forms) seems to be the #1 cause of death in our country. So very sad.