I utterly agree. The point of contention comes when people want to banish some who are openly and happily sinning and ignoring other openly and happily committed sinners. I wonder how pastors deal with this. Can you shed some light on this? How does the pastor deal with an openly gay couple v a couple living together out of wedlock or a …
I utterly agree. The point of contention comes when people want to banish some who are openly and happily sinning and ignoring other openly and happily committed sinners. I wonder how pastors deal with this. Can you shed some light on this? How does the pastor deal with an openly gay couple v a couple living together out of wedlock or a person who is lying and spreading gossip in the church? I know there would be a call to repent and to help them, but what if they don't want help? Do all have to be set to the side, do all get a pass or do we pick and choose?
That's a difficult question. Certainly a couple living together out of wedlock should be confronted with their sin, as they used to be. (An openly gay couple would probably not come to my church because it is known to be conservative.) I know that my pastor will not marry a couple unless they commit to living apart until the wedding. I can tell you that a number of people have left our church because of this.
I think that is such a good idea. At the very least it helps draw the line of before as two and then together as one going ahead in life bound in the Lord. I am sure it gets tricky when the couple has children, a home... but even so, time apart and then coming together to commit to each other before God is the better way for the couple and the church for integrity toward the Word of God.
Excellent question. I can only answer for the church I am at. We follow what Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians about dealing with open sin in the church. If it is known sin I speak with the person or persons (Baptized born again believers) on the matter and give them a chance to change. If the person or persons say yes and don't change they are asked to leave the congregation this done by an elders vote. In my twenty years we have only removed 2 people from the church, others when approached left on their own.
If an openly gay couple came into the church I would welcome them and let them know that God views their life choice as a sin. No different than any other sin and that to be made whole in Christ you would have to turn away from your lifestyle. Being truthful is showing someone love. As disciples of Christ we are called into making our lives more like Jesus. Jesus was without sin.
There are a lot of pastors, today, that don't worry about the open sin in the church. They like to point out that God will sift the church. I believe this is true for those who tell God yes but then don't ever do what they promise to do (Matthew 21:28-32). I have had people leave the church on their own, especially when I preach on sin.
I am not a fire and brimstone preacher, but God didn't tell us to just honor what we feel good about and don't worry about the rest. The idea of love God and love people is that is if you love God you will want to obey his commands, if you love people you will to unto them as you would then to do you.
Thanks for commenting here Pastor, and appreciate your faithfulness to God's Word.
I understand that you aren't a fire and brimstone preacher, but fire and brimstone are in the Bible. I agree that it shouldn't be the focus but it does need to be taught.
One of the things I love about attending a chapter by chapter, verse by verse church is that if forces the pastor to teach on topics that they might rather skip. God is just, and a just God does punish sin. People may not want to hear it, and it may cause people to leave the church, but it's truth. It's plainly stated in God's Word. If people aren't squirming in the pews on occasion then we aren't being faithful to teaching the full counsel of God.
Anyways, not meant to be critical and I know you have an incredibly difficult job and I'm thankful for your ministry. When teaching about Hell my pastor has said, "I don't like teaching about this part, or frankly even talking about it, but I must as it's in God's Word". His point wasn't that God made a mistake in putting it in the Bible, but the opposite. God's Word forces us to deal with things that our fallen human nature would rather not. God bless.
(Note: I am not Jeff Childers, but have a similar name)
I so wish you (or pastors like you) were leading churches in my neck of the woods. It's so hard to find leaders that are lovingly faithful to the Word. I don't need fire and brimstone... but I can't tolerate unfaithfulness to His Word.
Thank you for that thorough response. It shocked me a little that you followed up on removing people from your church after giving them time to reconsider their open sin. It is refreshing and I know it has to be hard (but necessary for your flock's sake) to do. God's sifting is only one side of the equation. I think pastors do their church a disservice - harm really, when you keep repentance and discipleship on the back burner. Including discipleship to the potential tares in church!
Your church is blessed to have you as their pastor.
and I'd like to clarify. I used out of wedlock as a comparison to two gay ppl cohabbing because they are similar and that "shaking up" used to be seriously condemned and now is accepted as normal.
Yes, I fought in the Sexual Revolution of the 60s and 70s that tore morality apart and I can’t express the level of regret I feel for having succeeded. It might be considered the beginning of the slide down the slippery slope we now have to deal with.
Yes, men and women should not have sexual relations outside of wedlock. It is wrong. But women said, “Oh, we want to!” And men said, “What a great idea!”
And here we are. So many murdered babies and destroyed lives later.
An honest feeling of regret so many ladies have now. If only we had kept it to be treated fairly and equally with equal opportunities.. We can only go forward and try to mend it.
Yes it does CStone. It also calls lying and haughtiness an abomination. And all sin (in general) is seen as equally bad in God's eye. He wants it all to be rooted out and for us all to seek to become like Christ every single day (with the help of the Holy Spirit). Even just one sin separates us from God. I thank God for sending his only begotten perfect son down to die for our sins. Only His blood covers our sin completely and eternally. As you probably well know, but for those who don't.... we are all sinners needing forgiveness. If you repent of your sins (meaning turn away from them and stop doing them and accept Christ died for your sins and rose again in glory taking your punishment you deserve (death). And giving you eternal life with HIM! What a gift! One we don't deserve!
but progressive people are NICER than God, archaic views and norms may be freely discarded and NEW Morality instituted; Earthcare over Birthcare; Jesus is cool with miscarriages and abortions i've heard it said
And in that, it differs from heterosexual relations. A man and woman can marry and mate with the blessing of heaven. This will never be true of two men or two women. I didn’t say it. God did.
I know many ex-Catholics who left the church over being told they can’t remarry without the process of annulment and certainly ‘shacking up’ would be an issue.
I’ve also known a couple of situations where people claimed to be living together like brother and sister. That is highly suspect and they are advised against such temptation.
I think if a church is true to the Gospel, it will be naturally repellent to unrepentant sinners who want confirmation from a church.
I do wonder how many unrepentant sinners are drawn into the churches with the “Love is Love, Science is Real, blah, blah, blah🤮” signs posted out front.
I utterly agree. The point of contention comes when people want to banish some who are openly and happily sinning and ignoring other openly and happily committed sinners. I wonder how pastors deal with this. Can you shed some light on this? How does the pastor deal with an openly gay couple v a couple living together out of wedlock or a person who is lying and spreading gossip in the church? I know there would be a call to repent and to help them, but what if they don't want help? Do all have to be set to the side, do all get a pass or do we pick and choose?
That's a difficult question. Certainly a couple living together out of wedlock should be confronted with their sin, as they used to be. (An openly gay couple would probably not come to my church because it is known to be conservative.) I know that my pastor will not marry a couple unless they commit to living apart until the wedding. I can tell you that a number of people have left our church because of this.
I think that is such a good idea. At the very least it helps draw the line of before as two and then together as one going ahead in life bound in the Lord. I am sure it gets tricky when the couple has children, a home... but even so, time apart and then coming together to commit to each other before God is the better way for the couple and the church for integrity toward the Word of God.
Excellent question. I can only answer for the church I am at. We follow what Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians about dealing with open sin in the church. If it is known sin I speak with the person or persons (Baptized born again believers) on the matter and give them a chance to change. If the person or persons say yes and don't change they are asked to leave the congregation this done by an elders vote. In my twenty years we have only removed 2 people from the church, others when approached left on their own.
If an openly gay couple came into the church I would welcome them and let them know that God views their life choice as a sin. No different than any other sin and that to be made whole in Christ you would have to turn away from your lifestyle. Being truthful is showing someone love. As disciples of Christ we are called into making our lives more like Jesus. Jesus was without sin.
There are a lot of pastors, today, that don't worry about the open sin in the church. They like to point out that God will sift the church. I believe this is true for those who tell God yes but then don't ever do what they promise to do (Matthew 21:28-32). I have had people leave the church on their own, especially when I preach on sin.
I am not a fire and brimstone preacher, but God didn't tell us to just honor what we feel good about and don't worry about the rest. The idea of love God and love people is that is if you love God you will want to obey his commands, if you love people you will to unto them as you would then to do you.
Thanks for commenting here Pastor, and appreciate your faithfulness to God's Word.
I understand that you aren't a fire and brimstone preacher, but fire and brimstone are in the Bible. I agree that it shouldn't be the focus but it does need to be taught.
One of the things I love about attending a chapter by chapter, verse by verse church is that if forces the pastor to teach on topics that they might rather skip. God is just, and a just God does punish sin. People may not want to hear it, and it may cause people to leave the church, but it's truth. It's plainly stated in God's Word. If people aren't squirming in the pews on occasion then we aren't being faithful to teaching the full counsel of God.
Anyways, not meant to be critical and I know you have an incredibly difficult job and I'm thankful for your ministry. When teaching about Hell my pastor has said, "I don't like teaching about this part, or frankly even talking about it, but I must as it's in God's Word". His point wasn't that God made a mistake in putting it in the Bible, but the opposite. God's Word forces us to deal with things that our fallen human nature would rather not. God bless.
(Note: I am not Jeff Childers, but have a similar name)
Great post!
I so wish you (or pastors like you) were leading churches in my neck of the woods. It's so hard to find leaders that are lovingly faithful to the Word. I don't need fire and brimstone... but I can't tolerate unfaithfulness to His Word.
I read Dennis's reply to my husband. We both at the same time said "I wish her preached here!"
Thank you for that thorough response. It shocked me a little that you followed up on removing people from your church after giving them time to reconsider their open sin. It is refreshing and I know it has to be hard (but necessary for your flock's sake) to do. God's sifting is only one side of the equation. I think pastors do their church a disservice - harm really, when you keep repentance and discipleship on the back burner. Including discipleship to the potential tares in church!
Your church is blessed to have you as their pastor.
and I'd like to clarify. I used out of wedlock as a comparison to two gay ppl cohabbing because they are similar and that "shaking up" used to be seriously condemned and now is accepted as normal.
Yes, I fought in the Sexual Revolution of the 60s and 70s that tore morality apart and I can’t express the level of regret I feel for having succeeded. It might be considered the beginning of the slide down the slippery slope we now have to deal with.
Yes, men and women should not have sexual relations outside of wedlock. It is wrong. But women said, “Oh, we want to!” And men said, “What a great idea!”
And here we are. So many murdered babies and destroyed lives later.
An honest feeling of regret so many ladies have now. If only we had kept it to be treated fairly and equally with equal opportunities.. We can only go forward and try to mend it.
The Bible openly calls homosexuality an ‘abomination’.
Yes it does CStone. It also calls lying and haughtiness an abomination. And all sin (in general) is seen as equally bad in God's eye. He wants it all to be rooted out and for us all to seek to become like Christ every single day (with the help of the Holy Spirit). Even just one sin separates us from God. I thank God for sending his only begotten perfect son down to die for our sins. Only His blood covers our sin completely and eternally. As you probably well know, but for those who don't.... we are all sinners needing forgiveness. If you repent of your sins (meaning turn away from them and stop doing them and accept Christ died for your sins and rose again in glory taking your punishment you deserve (death). And giving you eternal life with HIM! What a gift! One we don't deserve!
but progressive people are NICER than God, archaic views and norms may be freely discarded and NEW Morality instituted; Earthcare over Birthcare; Jesus is cool with miscarriages and abortions i've heard it said
And in that, it differs from heterosexual relations. A man and woman can marry and mate with the blessing of heaven. This will never be true of two men or two women. I didn’t say it. God did.
I look forward to a response to this question.
I know many ex-Catholics who left the church over being told they can’t remarry without the process of annulment and certainly ‘shacking up’ would be an issue.
I’ve also known a couple of situations where people claimed to be living together like brother and sister. That is highly suspect and they are advised against such temptation.
I think if a church is true to the Gospel, it will be naturally repellent to unrepentant sinners who want confirmation from a church.
I do wonder how many unrepentant sinners are drawn into the churches with the “Love is Love, Science is Real, blah, blah, blah🤮” signs posted out front.