I canāt smash the like button hard enough. I JUST wrote my perspective on āForgivenessā to another Substack and am in full agreement with you. Christās forgiveness is distorted.
BECAUSE of free will, it becomes a two-way street. Yes we have the hearts to forgive, but it can only be given when the other party acknowledges it is needed. Jusā¦
I canāt smash the like button hard enough. I JUST wrote my perspective on āForgivenessā to another Substack and am in full agreement with you. Christās forgiveness is distorted.
BECAUSE of free will, it becomes a two-way street. Yes we have the hearts to forgive, but it can only be given when the other party acknowledges it is needed. Just because God already forgave me doesnāt immediately save me from consequences. The saving requires I acknowledge and accept it first. Thatās how it works. Thatās the part everyone wants to ignore because they think they are somehow better people for not needing it.
Now there ARE people who refuse to forgive when it is clearly desired, and they are as evil and cruel as those who hurt them are. If someone is truly repentant thatās all I need to embrace and love them and go out of my way to lessen any consequences.
And there ARE people fully willing to forgive before someone acknowledges it is needed and that causes never ending repeat offenses. Battered wife analogy spot on
But then there are those of us that have that forgiveness in our heart ready and willing, but it CANNOT be given until someone shows by word or actions that they are aware it is needed. We cannot save them from logical consequences or punishments just by our forgiveness alone.
And those who refuse to acknowledge sometimes need the justice system to wake them up. Itās not cruel, itās actually kind. Hope that through it all they see what they did as wrong and desire to change it.
(I explained this more clearly in my other post š¤£ Iām rushed for a Dr appt. If you want to read a clearer explanation find Sasha Stoneās article)
People who operate in good faith deserve to be treated differently than people who operate in bad faith. The fact that so many Christians don't understand this boggles my mind. They have let satan twist Christ's words to the opposite meaning.
The clearest example we have of this is Christ Himself. Anyone who has spent anytime in the Gospels will see Christ treated the *repentant* sinner far differently from how He treated the hypocritical Pharisees. He called them vipers and sons of Satan right to their face, for crying out loud.
Yet many Christians, most of whom don't know their Bible, have let the world convince them that we must treat today's hypocritical Pharisees *the same* as we do the repentant sinner. It is such a perversion of the Gospel it defies explanation other than coming from the devil himself.
Presently reading a book by a Phd theologian, Greg Boyd: The Myth of a Christian Nation. His whole premise is flawed. Too deep to discuss, but your and Juju's posts here address and refute much of it.
When I was a child, I was a hand fullā¦my parents always spanked my dear bottom and then they showed mercy and forgivenessā¦.been kind enough to feed me and clothed me. We should do the same for them in prisonā¦.for the pedo thatās another thing. The dead penalty for anyone that harms a child
If anyone harm one of these little ones, better a millstone were tied about his neck and he dropped into deep water (paraphrase)--but--sounds like Jesus saying death penalty for harming children!
Yes, thatās exactly it for me, it isnāt the punishment aspect but the prevention of further harm. Given the horrendous consequences to childrenās lives when they are subjected to abuse, we simply cannot take the chance that these monsters would do it again š
Exactly! And we have learned time and time again that this sickness spreads...so the victims then often grow up to be offenders. That's why we've got to cut it off wherever possible. Stop the cycle.
We are to forgive because we have been forgiven. Ephesians 4:32;Colossians 3:13, forgiving and trusting are not the same.Un forgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. When we donāt forgive someone itās as if we have a chain around our neck and weāre dragging them with us. The other person may never know weāve forgiven them or care. Jesus answered 70x7 when asked how often we should forgive,Matthew 18:21-22. I agree the justice system is used to bring justice to the offender but that is separate from forgiveness which is first between us and God.
I can offer forgiveness all day long but if it is not accepted nor wanted the cycle is incomplete. I am not refusing to forgive someone in my heart. I have and I want to complete the exchange. True healing doesnāt occur until that cycle is complete. When the other party refuses to see they need it and donāt want it then there are consequences I canāt avoid, and those consequences arenāt because I have an unforgiving heart. They are because of their own actions.
People donāt have to āearnā forgiveness either. They simply have to acknowledge it is needed. Thatās the way God set it up. Not by works - but is HAS to be accepted.
My faith, Christianity, clearly shows the cycle of forgiveness that even many churches get wrong in their teaching. Yes God has already forgiven all of us because he has a loving spirit BUT we cannot be saved from the punishment for our actions/choices/sin UNTIL we acknowledge we need forgiveness and accept his gift. Period. No amount of Godās forgiveness of us will save us from the punishment of sin UNTIL we accept it. Once we do forgiveness is instant because the heart giving it always wanted to give it. Then the cycle is complete.
But because we are free-will peoples, we cannot receive it without accepting it and we cannot accept it until we acknowledge we need it. So until then, we suffer the consequences and canāt be forgiven. If you think we can then there would be no hell. If God forgave us all then it doesnāt matter what we choose we would be going to heaven. But thatās not how forgiveness works. There are two parts. So one who doesnāt change and doesnāt acknowledge he needs forgiveness suffers the damnation. Does that make God unforgivable? No, thatās our fault, not His. He is a just God. Thinking he is incapable of forgiving because we suffer consequences or judgement is just projecting our own ugliness back onto Him. Everyone always thinks forgiveness is a one-way street but itās not, not if we have true freedom of choice.
Forgiving others before they want it is for my own benefit, not theirs. But this talk is about them, not me. itās about completing the cycle and why thatās so hard when the other side does not want it or want to change. For a functioning society we need that cycle to complete and thatās why we have the justice system.
Now there ARE ugly hearts that wonāt grant forgiveness even when it is acknowledged and sought, they demand you āearnā it as you say. I've experienced that in my own life - and the people who should have forgiven me not only wrote me off, they continued to punish me long after I had changed. Ironically I forgave them repeatedly only to have them continue to wrong me in the same way time and again. We should not confuse the two types of people.
I offer forgiveness easily when someone acknowledges in some way that it is needed. Itās given in the blink of an eye. I recently had a long term friend from online who deeply hurt me and wronged me reach out timidly after almost three years to test the waters. I was polite but cautious. I could tell by her words she was truly sorry and did not know how to say it. So I began to just lovingly embrace her again, it was enough for me. It could be given but the circle couldnāt be completed until she came to terms with it herself. It is the same with the canyon sin creates between us and God. He places the cross down so we can cross the canyon. Just because the cross is laid we donāt magically appear on the other side. We have to CHOOSE to cross it!
My friend chose to reach out to me and in doing so it was crossing a divide created between us and I immediately showed my forgiveness. I missed her. I had forgiven her in my heart years earlier, but I couldnāt arrogantly tell her that when she didnāt think she did anything wrong. It took her less than a couple weeks for her dam to break and for her to tell me she was amazed at my forgiving heart and she felt so bad. I just loved her all the more. Iāve never brought up the past that destroyed our friendship. It was unnecessary. We are reconciled and itās one of my most beautiful friendships today. Thatās how itās supposed to work - but it requires BOTH SIDES to do the right thing. Not just one side.
Our forgiving those who have treated us cruelly all these years depends on their choices too, not just our own. Until they WANT it, there ARE consequences. There WILL be a great divide. We donāt have to create additional consequences to hurt them in return, or demand they earn our forgiveness, the natural consequences and true justice of the law will be hurtful enough, and we shouldnāt be shamed or feel shame because of those consequences. Or be accused of having an unforgiving heart. We know in our hearts we will forgive, but they have to want that. Without consequences, they will never acknowledge what is wrong.
I agree to be forgiven by God we have to acknowledge our need for forgiveness and repent( turn away) from our sin. He does not forgive us without this action by us. Also reconciliation is different and is the two way street you are referring to.
I guess weāll have to agree to disagree on whether God has forgiven all of us, I would agree He has offered forgiveness to all but as you state we have a choice of believing that Jesus paid for our sins and then receiving the forgiveness offered. Along with our eternal reward of continuing our life with Him.
Yes and more. A lot of people have stuck their neck out knowing the Captured Media will make it tough on them. But the lefty tyrants are losing their effectiveness.
And now Mark Cuban has, in effect, called all of Trump's women supporters , all of the women who work for him, all the women he surrounds himself with...stupid. I ask you--who is the stupid one? Don't these Democrats realize that they are shooting themselves in the head? Yesterday we were garbage and today we are stupid. How in the HELL do they think they are going to get any of us to go over to their side?
As a matter of fact, I could give him a run for the money where that is concerned. I am 100% Polish and my people were Polish Jews, then Polish Catholics. Go figure. Anyhow, I can't stand Mark Cuban. Supporting what has to be one of the most stupid women in the country--Kamala--he has some kind of nerve to talk about all the women in Trump's circle.
I ended up adding what I said over there to more replies above. š¤£ So itās all here now too.
But for future enjoyment Sasha Stoneās Substack āFree Thinking Through The Fourth Turningā is one of my MUST reads every day. Choose any article any day and youāll love it. She has such an amazing heart, and a powerful way to explain things in the most succinct, clear manner. Definitely find her articles about how she woke up and left the liberal Democrat party, which are amazing There are several.
I am familiar with Sasha Stone. Saw a lot of podcast during Con-vid, but didnāt know there was a Substackā¦ but isnāt she a he?? Or am I missing something
No she is definitely a woman. Used to cover Hollywood reporting for movies etc and was excommunicated when they discovered she started to see the light and change her political views. Her past articles are easy to find under her Substack where posts are listed in chronological order.
Even though we are forgiven we will still need to do penance.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw ā each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
I canāt smash the like button hard enough. I JUST wrote my perspective on āForgivenessā to another Substack and am in full agreement with you. Christās forgiveness is distorted.
BECAUSE of free will, it becomes a two-way street. Yes we have the hearts to forgive, but it can only be given when the other party acknowledges it is needed. Just because God already forgave me doesnāt immediately save me from consequences. The saving requires I acknowledge and accept it first. Thatās how it works. Thatās the part everyone wants to ignore because they think they are somehow better people for not needing it.
Now there ARE people who refuse to forgive when it is clearly desired, and they are as evil and cruel as those who hurt them are. If someone is truly repentant thatās all I need to embrace and love them and go out of my way to lessen any consequences.
And there ARE people fully willing to forgive before someone acknowledges it is needed and that causes never ending repeat offenses. Battered wife analogy spot on
But then there are those of us that have that forgiveness in our heart ready and willing, but it CANNOT be given until someone shows by word or actions that they are aware it is needed. We cannot save them from logical consequences or punishments just by our forgiveness alone.
And those who refuse to acknowledge sometimes need the justice system to wake them up. Itās not cruel, itās actually kind. Hope that through it all they see what they did as wrong and desire to change it.
(I explained this more clearly in my other post š¤£ Iām rushed for a Dr appt. If you want to read a clearer explanation find Sasha Stoneās article)
People who operate in good faith deserve to be treated differently than people who operate in bad faith. The fact that so many Christians don't understand this boggles my mind. They have let satan twist Christ's words to the opposite meaning.
The clearest example we have of this is Christ Himself. Anyone who has spent anytime in the Gospels will see Christ treated the *repentant* sinner far differently from how He treated the hypocritical Pharisees. He called them vipers and sons of Satan right to their face, for crying out loud.
Yet many Christians, most of whom don't know their Bible, have let the world convince them that we must treat today's hypocritical Pharisees *the same* as we do the repentant sinner. It is such a perversion of the Gospel it defies explanation other than coming from the devil himself.
Precisely! The people perish for lack of knowledge and this is the fault of OUR religious leaders. It's time for a reformation in the American church.
True forgiveness demands repentance by the one forgiven. The great White Throne judgment still awaits us all ....
good one. I saved that specially Jeff.
Presently reading a book by a Phd theologian, Greg Boyd: The Myth of a Christian Nation. His whole premise is flawed. Too deep to discuss, but your and Juju's posts here address and refute much of it.
thanks and have a good day!
Right?! I have seen so much of this I can easily imagine what that author says. These "Christian authorities" are deceivers.
Yes. Precisely this is how I see it too
When I was a child, I was a hand fullā¦my parents always spanked my dear bottom and then they showed mercy and forgivenessā¦.been kind enough to feed me and clothed me. We should do the same for them in prisonā¦.for the pedo thatās another thing. The dead penalty for anyone that harms a child
If anyone harm one of these little ones, better a millstone were tied about his neck and he dropped into deep water (paraphrase)--but--sounds like Jesus saying death penalty for harming children!
far too quick. bring back public stoning
After a fair trial of peers... Beyond REASONABLE doubt. REASONABLE is lost today.
Such shallowness of interpretation is absurd and dangerous.
Couldn't agree more. I see no saving for those people. They simply must be eliminated to prevent doing any more harm to anyone else.
Yes, thatās exactly it for me, it isnāt the punishment aspect but the prevention of further harm. Given the horrendous consequences to childrenās lives when they are subjected to abuse, we simply cannot take the chance that these monsters would do it again š
Exactly! And we have learned time and time again that this sickness spreads...so the victims then often grow up to be offenders. That's why we've got to cut it off wherever possible. Stop the cycle.
Yes. agree.
There are laws against murder AND accessories to illegal activities and The TRUTH demanded a life for a life. We are WAY past law abiding!
We are to forgive because we have been forgiven. Ephesians 4:32;Colossians 3:13, forgiving and trusting are not the same.Un forgiveness is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. When we donāt forgive someone itās as if we have a chain around our neck and weāre dragging them with us. The other person may never know weāve forgiven them or care. Jesus answered 70x7 when asked how often we should forgive,Matthew 18:21-22. I agree the justice system is used to bring justice to the offender but that is separate from forgiveness which is first between us and God.
I can offer forgiveness all day long but if it is not accepted nor wanted the cycle is incomplete. I am not refusing to forgive someone in my heart. I have and I want to complete the exchange. True healing doesnāt occur until that cycle is complete. When the other party refuses to see they need it and donāt want it then there are consequences I canāt avoid, and those consequences arenāt because I have an unforgiving heart. They are because of their own actions.
People donāt have to āearnā forgiveness either. They simply have to acknowledge it is needed. Thatās the way God set it up. Not by works - but is HAS to be accepted.
My faith, Christianity, clearly shows the cycle of forgiveness that even many churches get wrong in their teaching. Yes God has already forgiven all of us because he has a loving spirit BUT we cannot be saved from the punishment for our actions/choices/sin UNTIL we acknowledge we need forgiveness and accept his gift. Period. No amount of Godās forgiveness of us will save us from the punishment of sin UNTIL we accept it. Once we do forgiveness is instant because the heart giving it always wanted to give it. Then the cycle is complete.
But because we are free-will peoples, we cannot receive it without accepting it and we cannot accept it until we acknowledge we need it. So until then, we suffer the consequences and canāt be forgiven. If you think we can then there would be no hell. If God forgave us all then it doesnāt matter what we choose we would be going to heaven. But thatās not how forgiveness works. There are two parts. So one who doesnāt change and doesnāt acknowledge he needs forgiveness suffers the damnation. Does that make God unforgivable? No, thatās our fault, not His. He is a just God. Thinking he is incapable of forgiving because we suffer consequences or judgement is just projecting our own ugliness back onto Him. Everyone always thinks forgiveness is a one-way street but itās not, not if we have true freedom of choice.
Forgiving others before they want it is for my own benefit, not theirs. But this talk is about them, not me. itās about completing the cycle and why thatās so hard when the other side does not want it or want to change. For a functioning society we need that cycle to complete and thatās why we have the justice system.
Now there ARE ugly hearts that wonāt grant forgiveness even when it is acknowledged and sought, they demand you āearnā it as you say. I've experienced that in my own life - and the people who should have forgiven me not only wrote me off, they continued to punish me long after I had changed. Ironically I forgave them repeatedly only to have them continue to wrong me in the same way time and again. We should not confuse the two types of people.
I offer forgiveness easily when someone acknowledges in some way that it is needed. Itās given in the blink of an eye. I recently had a long term friend from online who deeply hurt me and wronged me reach out timidly after almost three years to test the waters. I was polite but cautious. I could tell by her words she was truly sorry and did not know how to say it. So I began to just lovingly embrace her again, it was enough for me. It could be given but the circle couldnāt be completed until she came to terms with it herself. It is the same with the canyon sin creates between us and God. He places the cross down so we can cross the canyon. Just because the cross is laid we donāt magically appear on the other side. We have to CHOOSE to cross it!
My friend chose to reach out to me and in doing so it was crossing a divide created between us and I immediately showed my forgiveness. I missed her. I had forgiven her in my heart years earlier, but I couldnāt arrogantly tell her that when she didnāt think she did anything wrong. It took her less than a couple weeks for her dam to break and for her to tell me she was amazed at my forgiving heart and she felt so bad. I just loved her all the more. Iāve never brought up the past that destroyed our friendship. It was unnecessary. We are reconciled and itās one of my most beautiful friendships today. Thatās how itās supposed to work - but it requires BOTH SIDES to do the right thing. Not just one side.
Our forgiving those who have treated us cruelly all these years depends on their choices too, not just our own. Until they WANT it, there ARE consequences. There WILL be a great divide. We donāt have to create additional consequences to hurt them in return, or demand they earn our forgiveness, the natural consequences and true justice of the law will be hurtful enough, and we shouldnāt be shamed or feel shame because of those consequences. Or be accused of having an unforgiving heart. We know in our hearts we will forgive, but they have to want that. Without consequences, they will never acknowledge what is wrong.
I agree to be forgiven by God we have to acknowledge our need for forgiveness and repent( turn away) from our sin. He does not forgive us without this action by us. Also reconciliation is different and is the two way street you are referring to.
I guess weāll have to agree to disagree on whether God has forgiven all of us, I would agree He has offered forgiveness to all but as you state we have a choice of believing that Jesus paid for our sins and then receiving the forgiveness offered. Along with our eternal reward of continuing our life with Him.
I think we agree more than you think. Possibly due to each of our own different experiences with terminology.
*We have Trump AND Elon to thank.
Yes and more. A lot of people have stuck their neck out knowing the Captured Media will make it tough on them. But the lefty tyrants are losing their effectiveness.
And now Mark Cuban has, in effect, called all of Trump's women supporters , all of the women who work for him, all the women he surrounds himself with...stupid. I ask you--who is the stupid one? Don't these Democrats realize that they are shooting themselves in the head? Yesterday we were garbage and today we are stupid. How in the HELL do they think they are going to get any of us to go over to their side?
Yes, it boggles the mind how the Dems keep saying these crazy things, which are hopefully alienating enough people so they won't vote for evil.
Mark Cuban is Jewish, so criticism is not allowed.
Remember the holocaust?
https://jewishunpacked.com/is-mark-cuban-jewish/
As a matter of fact, I could give him a run for the money where that is concerned. I am 100% Polish and my people were Polish Jews, then Polish Catholics. Go figure. Anyhow, I can't stand Mark Cuban. Supporting what has to be one of the most stupid women in the country--Kamala--he has some kind of nerve to talk about all the women in Trump's circle.
I pray your right Based Florida Man. Oh how I pray.
Perfectly stated, Juju. Amen!
Excellent response!
Thank you Juju, that was explained nicely. I agree. Forgiveness is for those who repent.
Which SS article would that be? Thx
I ended up adding what I said over there to more replies above. š¤£ So itās all here now too.
But for future enjoyment Sasha Stoneās Substack āFree Thinking Through The Fourth Turningā is one of my MUST reads every day. Choose any article any day and youāll love it. She has such an amazing heart, and a powerful way to explain things in the most succinct, clear manner. Definitely find her articles about how she woke up and left the liberal Democrat party, which are amazing There are several.
https://open.substack.com/pub/sashastone
Thanks for responding.
I am familiar with Sasha Stone. Saw a lot of podcast during Con-vid, but didnāt know there was a Substackā¦ but isnāt she a he?? Or am I missing something
No she is definitely a woman. Used to cover Hollywood reporting for movies etc and was excommunicated when they discovered she started to see the light and change her political views. Her past articles are easy to find under her Substack where posts are listed in chronological order.
Spot on.
True forgiveness demands repentance by the one forgiven. The great White Throne judgment still awaits us all ....
The great White Throne judgment is for the unrepentant and the Bema Seat for the repentant. That is my understanding and belief.
Even though we are forgiven we will still need to do penance.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw ā each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
So your actions of pentence will save you? What about Purgatory?