The Israel of the New Covenant are ALL those who accepted the Messiah during and after his ministry, Jew and Gentile alike. Those of Israel who rejected Him were "branches of the olive tree" that were broken off and "cast away" in judgement. Thus 70 AD and the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. In Romans 11, Paul, talking to the Ge…
The Israel of the New Covenant are ALL those who accepted the Messiah during and after his ministry, Jew and Gentile alike. Those of Israel who rejected Him were "branches of the olive tree" that were broken off and "cast away" in judgement. Thus 70 AD and the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. In Romans 11, Paul, talking to the Gentile Christians, warns them not to look down upon Jews because not all have rejected Christ as he himself is an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin. He explains that God reserved to Himself "a remnant according to the election of grace"... "whom He foreknew."
Paul goes on to further explain how he desires to "provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save SOME of them" by his ministry to the Gentiles. So he admonishes the Gentile Christians not to be haughty, but fear. For if the natural branches could be broken off because of unbelief, they also could be cut off if they do not "stand by faith." Those who did not accept the Messiah were cut off from God's Covenant and the Israel of God are now all who believe in the risen Savior.
In Luke 21, Jesus warns His disciples that the Temple will be destroyed and then warns them what to watch for so they may escape the desolation of Jerusalem (v 20). In verse 22, Jesus says, "For these are the days of vengeance that all things which are written (in the OT) may be fulfilled."
There is only one Covenant and there is only one Israel: the New Covenant Israel of Jesus Christ. The people who call themselves "Jews" gave up their connection with the covenant of God with the advent of Christ, their rejection of Him and the pouring out of God's wrath on apostate Israel in 70 AD. In effect, they are now accounted among the unbelieving Gentiles. "The days of vengeance" were poured out only once so that all things that were written in the Old Testament may be fulfilled. God fulfilled all things written in the OT when His Son died on the cross and rose to ascend to the throne.
It still remains, though, that faithful Jews exist, all over the world and in Israel. And it has always looked to me like those faithful Jews are still blessed. They are often wealthy and successful. It’s one of the reasons they are hated. When God chose them, He blessed them but it also put a target on their backs. When they follow God, He blesses them. There is trouble, but they are able to persevere.
If that blessing is over and God has cast them away, how do you explain their continued existence even in foreign countries, generation after generation? And their continued blessing? How do you explain the gathering back to the land of Israel, in fulfillment of prophecy?
Ethnically jewish people can survive in the same way anglo-saxon people survive; it doesn't require divine intervention. Further, rabbinic judaism as I understand it, has traditionally encouraged intelligence and diligence, both of which are going to help a group to survive better.
The more significant point is, "faithful" Jews are only faithful if they acknowledge the Messiah. Moses prophesied that a prophet greater than himself was coming, and "you must listen to him"; we know who that One "greater than Moses" is, so if a Jewish person refuses to accept Him, in doing so they disobey Moses and are no longer faithful to their covenant.
But Anglo-Saxon people, and every single other ethnic group, when immigrating to, say, Spain, become plain old Spanish within a few generations. Not the Jews. Obviously, this is a strong indication of divine intervention.
When I say “faithful” Jews, I’m talking about people who practice their faith. They seek God, go to synagogue, celebrate the Sabbath and high holy days. They don’t know Jesus, yet, but they do worship the Father.
This rationale is not Scriptural. You say, "They don't know Jesus" and this is true. In Matthew 12, the Pharisees accuse Jesus of casting out demons by Beelzebub. In response Jesus proceeds with a long lecture for the rest of chapter 12. Jesus tells the Pharisees that their blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. He calls them a "Brood of vipers!" and tells them that by their own words they will be condemned. They then ask Jesus for a sign and in response Jesus calls them an evil and adulterous generation and that the ONLY sign they will be given is the sign of Jonah, thus referring to His own resurrection and that the men of Nineveh who repented at the sign of Jonah will rise in judgement of their generation and condemn them because "a greater than Jonah is here... and a greater than Solomom is here." Jesus ends by referring to His disciples and says "For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother." In John 14, Jesus says, "No one comes to the Father except through Me." Clearly, Jesus is explicitly saying they do NOT worship the Father because they have rejected His Son.
You started this thread by claiming the Romans wiped out the Jews 2000 years ago, which is nonsense. And it seems you have claimed this in order to justify hating Israel and the Jewish people who actually still exist, by the grace of God.
And if you want to quibble about terms, fine. They worship their Creator, which just happens to be the same Creator Christians worship. Or you could say they worship God as they understand Him from the Old Testament.
Sorry for the typo. I'm glad you understood what I meant.
I never said the Jews of Jesus' day were "wiped out". I simply quoted scripture that described their judgement. Obviously, many did die in 70 AD with the closing out of the Old Covenant but the rest were dispersed and have descendants today. Where do I justify hating "Israel" and the Jewish people? Like anyone else, they are sinners who do not know Christ and are in need of salvation. There is nothing special about them in terms of their relationship to God. Jesus made that very clear as I described above. The promises of God in the Old Covenant were fulfilled in the believers who accepted Christ when He came to them.
As for who they worship, at least the few who are not secular Jews, they are no different than the rest of the Gentiles who do not know Christ. They are in need of the Gospel. This is no different than when Paul would preach to the Gentiles who believed in a Creator and he would say, Good - now let me tell you about who this Creator is.
I do not "Hate" and for you to accuse me of such is unfounded. Again, all I have done is quote the Word. If you have a problem with that then I suggest your problem is actually with the theology that you have been taught that misrepresents the Word. "No one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14
"...The more significant point is, "faithful" Jews are only faithful if they acknowledge the Messiah. Moses prophesied that a prophet greater than himself was coming, and "you must listen to him"; we know who that One "greater than Moses" is, so if a Jewish person refuses to accept Him, in doing so they disobey Moses and are no longer faithful to their covenant..."
There are also plenty of evil men who are "wealthy and successful". That means nothing.
The 21st century political state called Israel has nothing to do with "the fulfillment of prophecy." I've explained the status of so-called Jews in my other reply to you. (And point in fact, most Jews today are not religious but completely secular.)
What you are doing is what the modern day church has been doing for a long time. They are imposing current events onto Scripture as a means to interpreting Scripture. This is completely erroneous. Scripture must be interpreted with Scripture which requires more study than the modern day church wants to invest.
Daniel 9:26-27 prophesies the coming of the armies to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple. The parallel passage to Matt 24 and Daniel 9 is Luke 21:20-22 which makes clear the meaning of Matt and Daniel. This is the "abomination of desolation" and, as Luke explains, was to be the armed invasion of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple as God brings the Old Covenant to a close. In 68 AD, the Edomites, the age long enemies of Israel, surrounded and invaded the city and slaughtered 8,500 people in the Temple. In the words of Josephus, this was "the beginning of the destruction of the city. From this very day may be dated the overthrow of her wall and the ruin of her affairs." These are "the days of vengeance that all things which are written (in the OT) may be fulfilled" Luke 21:22.
The modern church does not understand these prophecies because they do not understand the economy of God's covenants and their meaning. This was the closing out of the Old Covenant with God's wrath poured out on apostate Israel and the establishment of the New Covenant in Christ's shed blood. Jesus said in Matt 24:21, "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, NOR EVER SHALL BE." The great tribulation refers to the destruction of Temple in that generation alone (70 AD), an absolutely unique event in history never to be repeated.
The Israel of the New Covenant are ALL those who accepted the Messiah during and after his ministry, Jew and Gentile alike. Those of Israel who rejected Him were "branches of the olive tree" that were broken off and "cast away" in judgement. Thus 70 AD and the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. In Romans 11, Paul, talking to the Gentile Christians, warns them not to look down upon Jews because not all have rejected Christ as he himself is an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin. He explains that God reserved to Himself "a remnant according to the election of grace"... "whom He foreknew."
Paul goes on to further explain how he desires to "provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save SOME of them" by his ministry to the Gentiles. So he admonishes the Gentile Christians not to be haughty, but fear. For if the natural branches could be broken off because of unbelief, they also could be cut off if they do not "stand by faith." Those who did not accept the Messiah were cut off from God's Covenant and the Israel of God are now all who believe in the risen Savior.
In Luke 21, Jesus warns His disciples that the Temple will be destroyed and then warns them what to watch for so they may escape the desolation of Jerusalem (v 20). In verse 22, Jesus says, "For these are the days of vengeance that all things which are written (in the OT) may be fulfilled."
There is only one Covenant and there is only one Israel: the New Covenant Israel of Jesus Christ. The people who call themselves "Jews" gave up their connection with the covenant of God with the advent of Christ, their rejection of Him and the pouring out of God's wrath on apostate Israel in 70 AD. In effect, they are now accounted among the unbelieving Gentiles. "The days of vengeance" were poured out only once so that all things that were written in the Old Testament may be fulfilled. God fulfilled all things written in the OT when His Son died on the cross and rose to ascend to the throne.
It still remains, though, that faithful Jews exist, all over the world and in Israel. And it has always looked to me like those faithful Jews are still blessed. They are often wealthy and successful. It’s one of the reasons they are hated. When God chose them, He blessed them but it also put a target on their backs. When they follow God, He blesses them. There is trouble, but they are able to persevere.
If that blessing is over and God has cast them away, how do you explain their continued existence even in foreign countries, generation after generation? And their continued blessing? How do you explain the gathering back to the land of Israel, in fulfillment of prophecy?
Ethnically jewish people can survive in the same way anglo-saxon people survive; it doesn't require divine intervention. Further, rabbinic judaism as I understand it, has traditionally encouraged intelligence and diligence, both of which are going to help a group to survive better.
The more significant point is, "faithful" Jews are only faithful if they acknowledge the Messiah. Moses prophesied that a prophet greater than himself was coming, and "you must listen to him"; we know who that One "greater than Moses" is, so if a Jewish person refuses to accept Him, in doing so they disobey Moses and are no longer faithful to their covenant.
But Anglo-Saxon people, and every single other ethnic group, when immigrating to, say, Spain, become plain old Spanish within a few generations. Not the Jews. Obviously, this is a strong indication of divine intervention.
When I say “faithful” Jews, I’m talking about people who practice their faith. They seek God, go to synagogue, celebrate the Sabbath and high holy days. They don’t know Jesus, yet, but they do worship the Father.
This rationale is not Scriptural. You say, "They don't know Jesus" and this is true. In Matthew 12, the Pharisees accuse Jesus of casting out demons by Beelzebub. In response Jesus proceeds with a long lecture for the rest of chapter 12. Jesus tells the Pharisees that their blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. He calls them a "Brood of vipers!" and tells them that by their own words they will be condemned. They then ask Jesus for a sign and in response Jesus calls them an evil and adulterous generation and that the ONLY sign they will be given is the sign of Jonah, thus referring to His own resurrection and that the men of Nineveh who repented at the sign of Jonah will rise in judgement of their generation and condemn them because "a greater than Jonah is here... and a greater than Solomom is here." Jesus ends by referring to His disciples and says "For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother." In John 14, Jesus says, "No one comes to the Father except through Me." Clearly, Jesus is explicitly saying they do NOT worship the Father because they have rejected His Son.
It’s rationale, not rational.
You started this thread by claiming the Romans wiped out the Jews 2000 years ago, which is nonsense. And it seems you have claimed this in order to justify hating Israel and the Jewish people who actually still exist, by the grace of God.
And if you want to quibble about terms, fine. They worship their Creator, which just happens to be the same Creator Christians worship. Or you could say they worship God as they understand Him from the Old Testament.
Whatever. Hate if you want to.
Sorry for the typo. I'm glad you understood what I meant.
I never said the Jews of Jesus' day were "wiped out". I simply quoted scripture that described their judgement. Obviously, many did die in 70 AD with the closing out of the Old Covenant but the rest were dispersed and have descendants today. Where do I justify hating "Israel" and the Jewish people? Like anyone else, they are sinners who do not know Christ and are in need of salvation. There is nothing special about them in terms of their relationship to God. Jesus made that very clear as I described above. The promises of God in the Old Covenant were fulfilled in the believers who accepted Christ when He came to them.
As for who they worship, at least the few who are not secular Jews, they are no different than the rest of the Gentiles who do not know Christ. They are in need of the Gospel. This is no different than when Paul would preach to the Gentiles who believed in a Creator and he would say, Good - now let me tell you about who this Creator is.
I do not "Hate" and for you to accuse me of such is unfounded. Again, all I have done is quote the Word. If you have a problem with that then I suggest your problem is actually with the theology that you have been taught that misrepresents the Word. "No one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14
"...The more significant point is, "faithful" Jews are only faithful if they acknowledge the Messiah. Moses prophesied that a prophet greater than himself was coming, and "you must listen to him"; we know who that One "greater than Moses" is, so if a Jewish person refuses to accept Him, in doing so they disobey Moses and are no longer faithful to their covenant..."
EXACTLY right.
There are also plenty of evil men who are "wealthy and successful". That means nothing.
The 21st century political state called Israel has nothing to do with "the fulfillment of prophecy." I've explained the status of so-called Jews in my other reply to you. (And point in fact, most Jews today are not religious but completely secular.)
What you are doing is what the modern day church has been doing for a long time. They are imposing current events onto Scripture as a means to interpreting Scripture. This is completely erroneous. Scripture must be interpreted with Scripture which requires more study than the modern day church wants to invest.
Daniel 9:26-27 prophesies the coming of the armies to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple. The parallel passage to Matt 24 and Daniel 9 is Luke 21:20-22 which makes clear the meaning of Matt and Daniel. This is the "abomination of desolation" and, as Luke explains, was to be the armed invasion of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple as God brings the Old Covenant to a close. In 68 AD, the Edomites, the age long enemies of Israel, surrounded and invaded the city and slaughtered 8,500 people in the Temple. In the words of Josephus, this was "the beginning of the destruction of the city. From this very day may be dated the overthrow of her wall and the ruin of her affairs." These are "the days of vengeance that all things which are written (in the OT) may be fulfilled" Luke 21:22.
The modern church does not understand these prophecies because they do not understand the economy of God's covenants and their meaning. This was the closing out of the Old Covenant with God's wrath poured out on apostate Israel and the establishment of the New Covenant in Christ's shed blood. Jesus said in Matt 24:21, "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, NOR EVER SHALL BE." The great tribulation refers to the destruction of Temple in that generation alone (70 AD), an absolutely unique event in history never to be repeated.