…writing a response to your great and most welcome reply (in my phone notes). But it’s getting longer and longer! About Machen & Darby & Scofield & how disp’ism infiltrated the churches & Isr & what’s being made of this ME thing & how & which end-time/Isr peeps have massive followings since & 🤔🧐🤨🤔.
…writing a response to your great and most welcome reply (in my phone notes). But it’s getting longer and longer! About Machen & Darby & Scofield & how disp’ism infiltrated the churches & Isr & what’s being made of this ME thing & how & which end-time/Isr peeps have massive followings since & 🤔🧐🤨🤔.
Ah well… Many thanks to you and to Him for you (and daverkb, too) and Blessings(!) this beautiful Sabbath!
Getting bogged down in checking;my facts & too many labyrinthIne (but interesting) trails. Sorry! Perhaps a trickle of thoughts are better. One great thing was revisiting what I call the Machen book: “Fighting The Good Fight” by D.G. Hart & John Muether. It’s a fascinating & rich account of what happened in the Presp Ch in the 20s & especially the 30s. (if you like that sort of thing — LOL) Lookimg to recall how Darby & Scofffield’s disp. theol. infiltrated the church. I know it snuck in via an org offering Sunday school classes In reformed (& many other) churches including the young OPC (Machen’s child) & it was even taught by some OPC pastors. starting about then. The laity, mostly, assimilated it big time. Insidious, like a virus and it smells of masonic miscjief. Can’t find where I learned about the Sun. school classes...will keep looking, There are bits about Machen’s concern when he realized the extent of it — I can copy from the book & send tomorrow, if you’d like. Not many had noticed — there were so many fierce doctrinal & control battles going on at the time...Will also grab & send some excerpt of my ADD ramble...
Dropped this ball, Phil. So Sorry! But, whilst culling the 400 odd open windows on my phone ( ! ! Yep. ADD ! ) I found this conv.
— Always delighted to find a fellow based Christian (especially in these times, when the seemingly relatively innocuous disp end-times twists have taken a very sinister turn — responsible for enabling so much deaths & destruction. But a lie responsible also for compromising these Christians, duped into immoral war-mongering; into forgetting First Things.
It greatly saddens me. The chasm is so very wide now. The very nature of salvation has been twisted: saved from the tribulation. This is not Faith and Repentence. It’s another Gospel altogether. My sweet pre-M friends are deeply ensnared in the enemy’s deception and daily feed themselves on its reinforcing sermons & reports — listening to their “prophesy updates” and raptly following Amir Tsarfati’s (& others) reports from Israel. The State of Iz has been anointed, their every egregious policy & military action sanctified. And they are kept from knowing or seeing what’s really happened & is happening — or the results & moral implications of their enabling of much of it.
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate the opportunity it affords me to put into words an attempt at an explanation that always is difficult to convey to the premil.
Another based Christian on this forum which you may already be aware of is Daverkb.
I would like to urge you to save your reply to me and use it to comment the next time this subject comes up in the comment section of C&C. It was really a very good comment.
… I know and very much like & appreciate Daverkb (I call him Dave Killer Bee — having skimmed his tag & misread. It just stuck 😂) You two are on a special page in my notes & I always like to hear your thoughts.
Dick, very well spoken! I couldn't agree with you more. It truly is another gospel. I have approached the subject a few times but the conundrum is a very difficult gordian knot to untie in a manner that is convincing to those mesmerized by the tribulation/rapture scenario.
You alluded to the problem that I perceive, "The very nature of salvation has been twisted..." The dispensationalist/premil do not understand how they have diluted THE most important event in all of history: the resurrection and ascension of the incarnate Son of God. This surpasses the creation itself. I could be wrong but I think the problem is a lack of understanding of God's covenant. Without the lens of covenant theology, the significance of the events between Christ's sacrifice and 70 AD are lost even though much of the NT is concerned with those events leading up to 70 AD beginning with His death and ascension. The Covenant between God and man was originally broken by Adam and was provisionally restored by God in the sacrificial system until the Second Adam's sacrifice. Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity, took upon Himself as the Son of God the penalty for all of man's sin and restored the creation's relationship to the Creator. The penalty for man's sin was poured out upon Jesus on the Cross and ALL those who accepted Jesus as the Messiah are covered by His spilled blood for their sins. These are the true covenanted children of God who by faith are now adopted sons of God. As such ALL of Israel HAVE been saved by Christ's sacrifice.
When the Old Covenant was closed out with Christ's death and the New Covenant in His blood was established, ALL of the judgement of the Old Covenant was poured out. Christ paid the penalty for all who accepted Him through faith. Those who did not accept Him as the Messiah, suffered the full weight of God's judgement (the same as Jesus suffered on our behalf) culminating in the great tribulation of 70 AD when the sacrificial Temple was destroyed and Jerusalem was ransacked killing those found inside.
God's covenant always was a covenant of faith. His covenant was never based on race. The people of Israel were assigned to function as priests to the nations, provisionally staying God's judgement until the Final Sacrifice. But salvation always was based on faith in God's Word. The closing out of the Old Covenant and the establishment of the New Covenant literally reordered all of creation. The dis/premil interpretation of God's Word sadly deemphasizes the central importance of the events of "this" generation (which fulfilled all of God's Word) and reduces the change in the covenants to an event that is only important in terms of individual, personal salvation and projects Christ's reign as King out into an unknowable future. Truly sad, as Christ has already ascended to the throne at the right hand of God and is now ruling through His Body on earth through the power of God, the Holy Spirit, who indwells the militant church. Today's premil misses all of that.
…You know, I don’t fully understand Covenant Theology. There seems to be various expressions of it articulated and preached within several faction WITHIN the broader Reformed tradition & they all lay claim to the final word —and its implications. The pastor of the OPC here in town , of which we were a part for years, had embraced what we concluded was a deviant form — It lead to a gospel-crippling legalism. A few of us had a very hard time with it — first in trying to nail it down —what is wrong here!?Something, but what?? — and then finding out exactly what it ought to be & how it deviated — and where it originated. That was in the early 2000s. The Norman Shepherd Controversy. Offshoots were the Federal Vision & Auburn Church emergence, the formation of Westminster West & all sorts of funnybunny permutations — like two kingdom stuff. All claiming Covenant Theology. Here, then, the culprit was Norman Shepherd (who’d taught our pastor & was actually invited to guest pastor & teach at our church. It was disturbing.) For several years we respectfully brought our objections to the pastor & elders. …to deaf ears — no-one would listen, despite overwhelming, compelling evidence of the deviation from sound doctrine which we were hearing — and what the sound doctrine of that church is!
(Nutshell takeaway: They sneakily taught it was that gospel points us to the law instead of the Law pointing to the Gospel. Huge difference! Clearly, Machen would be turning in his grave!)
As we sadly discovered, it had captured the entire NW Synod leadership. We finally had no choice but to leave the church. Very hard on us and our family. We were even shamefully threatened with excommunication — if you can believe that! —what we found by then to be a somewhat hilarious attempt to damage us. … We continued to stay in the larger discussions that had snowballed all over the country in the ensuing couple of years. Many articles, discussion groups, books & attention, by then. And the irony is that several years after we left, as that very controversy had grown from nothing to raging, within that small denom & also in the larger PCA, the OPC Gen Assembly finally passed a ruling to forbid that aberrant Shepherd & Fed Vision teaching. … This ruling was totally ignored in our old church; neither the elders nor cong. were told & it continued. But the ruling was vindicating, based as it was on the very same points we had presented. Of note: because it is a different gospel (just one of umpteen; they lie in wait in the ditches on BOTH sides of the road!) — many families eventually left for more nourishing pastures. Only a few remain there now.
👉🏼“Feed my sheep!”
I don’t know how I got off on that tangent from Covenant Theology…just to say, I guess, that just about any doctrinal tenant can be highjacked, as this story above is about how legalism can contort itself even into C. Th. Which it did.
I think I’m getting simple in my old age. Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so. And also you and him and her and us and them. I pray for enemies, forgiveness for my sins and know it’s there, have compassion for the hurting & poor (in spirit too) and know that Christ is indeed my redeemer and the redeemer of all. His Word, His time, His Sovereignty. I stand in His Righteousness and not my own.
I really do want to come to Him as the little child. Can one do that and yet be Wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove? A fully awake adult in this world and yet trusting & mild as a small child? Well… perhaps the net result is just a goofball of a Christian.
Take care, friend! Wise. Gentle. Through the wicket gate, we pilgrims go.
…writing a response to your great and most welcome reply (in my phone notes). But it’s getting longer and longer! About Machen & Darby & Scofield & how disp’ism infiltrated the churches & Isr & what’s being made of this ME thing & how & which end-time/Isr peeps have massive followings since & 🤔🧐🤨🤔.
Ah well… Many thanks to you and to Him for you (and daverkb, too) and Blessings(!) this beautiful Sabbath!
👆🏼✝️🕊🙏🏽👀💌
LOL...don't be shy. Let her rip. Always good to get something off ones chest so to speak.
Hah!
Well…I may have to send it unfinished…we’ll see if you still want the rest. It’s pretty much of a mishmosh of adjoining thoughts. (Symptom of ADD?)
As a fellow sufferer of ADD, I sympathize. I didn't even know about that until I was over 50.
*Sigh* Me neither. The problem is—everything does connect! Darn complicated and dense, this tapestry.
Getting bogged down in checking;my facts & too many labyrinthIne (but interesting) trails. Sorry! Perhaps a trickle of thoughts are better. One great thing was revisiting what I call the Machen book: “Fighting The Good Fight” by D.G. Hart & John Muether. It’s a fascinating & rich account of what happened in the Presp Ch in the 20s & especially the 30s. (if you like that sort of thing — LOL) Lookimg to recall how Darby & Scofffield’s disp. theol. infiltrated the church. I know it snuck in via an org offering Sunday school classes In reformed (& many other) churches including the young OPC (Machen’s child) & it was even taught by some OPC pastors. starting about then. The laity, mostly, assimilated it big time. Insidious, like a virus and it smells of masonic miscjief. Can’t find where I learned about the Sun. school classes...will keep looking, There are bits about Machen’s concern when he realized the extent of it — I can copy from the book & send tomorrow, if you’d like. Not many had noticed — there were so many fierce doctrinal & control battles going on at the time...Will also grab & send some excerpt of my ADD ramble...
Well I’m going to finish watching ‘Defected’ 😎
God’s many Blessingson you Phil!
Fascinating! I don't know much about that. Would like to hear more. Did you see the poem NanaW just posted further up in this string? Like a psalm.
Dropped this ball, Phil. So Sorry! But, whilst culling the 400 odd open windows on my phone ( ! ! Yep. ADD ! ) I found this conv.
— Always delighted to find a fellow based Christian (especially in these times, when the seemingly relatively innocuous disp end-times twists have taken a very sinister turn — responsible for enabling so much deaths & destruction. But a lie responsible also for compromising these Christians, duped into immoral war-mongering; into forgetting First Things.
It greatly saddens me. The chasm is so very wide now. The very nature of salvation has been twisted: saved from the tribulation. This is not Faith and Repentence. It’s another Gospel altogether. My sweet pre-M friends are deeply ensnared in the enemy’s deception and daily feed themselves on its reinforcing sermons & reports — listening to their “prophesy updates” and raptly following Amir Tsarfati’s (& others) reports from Israel. The State of Iz has been anointed, their every egregious policy & military action sanctified. And they are kept from knowing or seeing what’s really happened & is happening — or the results & moral implications of their enabling of much of it.
We pray for them all.
— May God richly Bless you, Phil!
🙏🏽👆🏼✝️🕊
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate the opportunity it affords me to put into words an attempt at an explanation that always is difficult to convey to the premil.
Another based Christian on this forum which you may already be aware of is Daverkb.
I would like to urge you to save your reply to me and use it to comment the next time this subject comes up in the comment section of C&C. It was really a very good comment.
Thank you so much!
… I know and very much like & appreciate Daverkb (I call him Dave Killer Bee — having skimmed his tag & misread. It just stuck 😂) You two are on a special page in my notes & I always like to hear your thoughts.
Thanks again & all thee very best.
Dick, very well spoken! I couldn't agree with you more. It truly is another gospel. I have approached the subject a few times but the conundrum is a very difficult gordian knot to untie in a manner that is convincing to those mesmerized by the tribulation/rapture scenario.
You alluded to the problem that I perceive, "The very nature of salvation has been twisted..." The dispensationalist/premil do not understand how they have diluted THE most important event in all of history: the resurrection and ascension of the incarnate Son of God. This surpasses the creation itself. I could be wrong but I think the problem is a lack of understanding of God's covenant. Without the lens of covenant theology, the significance of the events between Christ's sacrifice and 70 AD are lost even though much of the NT is concerned with those events leading up to 70 AD beginning with His death and ascension. The Covenant between God and man was originally broken by Adam and was provisionally restored by God in the sacrificial system until the Second Adam's sacrifice. Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity, took upon Himself as the Son of God the penalty for all of man's sin and restored the creation's relationship to the Creator. The penalty for man's sin was poured out upon Jesus on the Cross and ALL those who accepted Jesus as the Messiah are covered by His spilled blood for their sins. These are the true covenanted children of God who by faith are now adopted sons of God. As such ALL of Israel HAVE been saved by Christ's sacrifice.
When the Old Covenant was closed out with Christ's death and the New Covenant in His blood was established, ALL of the judgement of the Old Covenant was poured out. Christ paid the penalty for all who accepted Him through faith. Those who did not accept Him as the Messiah, suffered the full weight of God's judgement (the same as Jesus suffered on our behalf) culminating in the great tribulation of 70 AD when the sacrificial Temple was destroyed and Jerusalem was ransacked killing those found inside.
God's covenant always was a covenant of faith. His covenant was never based on race. The people of Israel were assigned to function as priests to the nations, provisionally staying God's judgement until the Final Sacrifice. But salvation always was based on faith in God's Word. The closing out of the Old Covenant and the establishment of the New Covenant literally reordered all of creation. The dis/premil interpretation of God's Word sadly deemphasizes the central importance of the events of "this" generation (which fulfilled all of God's Word) and reduces the change in the covenants to an event that is only important in terms of individual, personal salvation and projects Christ's reign as King out into an unknowable future. Truly sad, as Christ has already ascended to the throne at the right hand of God and is now ruling through His Body on earth through the power of God, the Holy Spirit, who indwells the militant church. Today's premil misses all of that.
Beautifully said!
…You know, I don’t fully understand Covenant Theology. There seems to be various expressions of it articulated and preached within several faction WITHIN the broader Reformed tradition & they all lay claim to the final word —and its implications. The pastor of the OPC here in town , of which we were a part for years, had embraced what we concluded was a deviant form — It lead to a gospel-crippling legalism. A few of us had a very hard time with it — first in trying to nail it down —what is wrong here!?Something, but what?? — and then finding out exactly what it ought to be & how it deviated — and where it originated. That was in the early 2000s. The Norman Shepherd Controversy. Offshoots were the Federal Vision & Auburn Church emergence, the formation of Westminster West & all sorts of funnybunny permutations — like two kingdom stuff. All claiming Covenant Theology. Here, then, the culprit was Norman Shepherd (who’d taught our pastor & was actually invited to guest pastor & teach at our church. It was disturbing.) For several years we respectfully brought our objections to the pastor & elders. …to deaf ears — no-one would listen, despite overwhelming, compelling evidence of the deviation from sound doctrine which we were hearing — and what the sound doctrine of that church is!
(Nutshell takeaway: They sneakily taught it was that gospel points us to the law instead of the Law pointing to the Gospel. Huge difference! Clearly, Machen would be turning in his grave!)
As we sadly discovered, it had captured the entire NW Synod leadership. We finally had no choice but to leave the church. Very hard on us and our family. We were even shamefully threatened with excommunication — if you can believe that! —what we found by then to be a somewhat hilarious attempt to damage us. … We continued to stay in the larger discussions that had snowballed all over the country in the ensuing couple of years. Many articles, discussion groups, books & attention, by then. And the irony is that several years after we left, as that very controversy had grown from nothing to raging, within that small denom & also in the larger PCA, the OPC Gen Assembly finally passed a ruling to forbid that aberrant Shepherd & Fed Vision teaching. … This ruling was totally ignored in our old church; neither the elders nor cong. were told & it continued. But the ruling was vindicating, based as it was on the very same points we had presented. Of note: because it is a different gospel (just one of umpteen; they lie in wait in the ditches on BOTH sides of the road!) — many families eventually left for more nourishing pastures. Only a few remain there now.
👉🏼“Feed my sheep!”
I don’t know how I got off on that tangent from Covenant Theology…just to say, I guess, that just about any doctrinal tenant can be highjacked, as this story above is about how legalism can contort itself even into C. Th. Which it did.
I think I’m getting simple in my old age. Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so. And also you and him and her and us and them. I pray for enemies, forgiveness for my sins and know it’s there, have compassion for the hurting & poor (in spirit too) and know that Christ is indeed my redeemer and the redeemer of all. His Word, His time, His Sovereignty. I stand in His Righteousness and not my own.
I really do want to come to Him as the little child. Can one do that and yet be Wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove? A fully awake adult in this world and yet trusting & mild as a small child? Well… perhaps the net result is just a goofball of a Christian.
Take care, friend! Wise. Gentle. Through the wicket gate, we pilgrims go.
✝️🕊💌