What's your solution then BE, Israel kills every last Palestinian using US dollars, weapons, political cover, and military support? Because that's the road we're on.
Israel has killed or maimed about 5% of the Gaza population and shows no sign of letting up. There death toll is now about 30 times that of what Hamas did on 10/7 (35,000 kil…
What's your solution then BE, Israel kills every last Palestinian using US dollars, weapons, political cover, and military support? Because that's the road we're on.
Israel has killed or maimed about 5% of the Gaza population and shows no sign of letting up. There death toll is now about 30 times that of what Hamas did on 10/7 (35,000 killed). Gaza is in ruins. It is indiscriminate with zero differentiation between civilians (who are 2/3's women and children) and legitimate military targets. When pressed on this, the Israelis just lie and deny it's all happening, or claim they are all "terrorists".
Israel has an obligation to figure something out. They don't get a free pass to kill civilians by the truckload whenever they think the Palestinians get too uppity. That's been their strategy for forty years paid for by our tax dollars. How's it worked out? All it's done is left a mountain of dead bodies and demonstrated how bloodthirsty those running Israel actually are.
I don't usually talk like this but God is going to judge those who go along with this (particularly those who twist the Bible to defend it). One cannot slaughter civilians by the tens of thousands and claim it's some moral, righteous cause.
If the whole area was part of Israel, that might be better. Israel’s government seems to do a pretty good job taking care of all citizens, whether Jewish or not, including allowing Arabs to participate in the government. And if Israel was in charge of the whole area, they could close up the underground tunnels, use their police force to root out the terrorists and jail them, take better care of the innocent civilians currently ignored by Hamas, etc. Seems like it would at least be better than the current status quo.
First of all Hamaz started the war, and Hamaz was voted in by the Palestinian people. Hamaz, being the cowards they are, hide in high population areas and hospitals. They have built an intricate tunnel structure all throughout Gaza where they hide. They care less for their people than Israel does. They use them as shields. Israel willingly gave up the Gaza Strip in order to make peace with the Palestinians, but the Palestinians don’t want peace. They have continually bombed Israel over the years. Thank God for the Iron Dome!
First, Hamas didn't start the war, it started in 1948 (edit: actually even earlier with Zionist extremist attacks in the area. Read about the King David Hotel bombing among other things). There is history here.
Second, those elections were two decades ago, a huge number of Gazans weren't even born. Plus your argument is a non-sequitur. By your logic, US Elementary school students are legitimate military targets since George Bush's election (twice) led to the invasion of Iraq and hundreds of thousands of deaths.
Third, what Hamas has done to hide behind civilians is irrelevant. Evil is evil. If bad guys hide behind civilian you don't get a moral free pass to kill the civilians to get to them. That's the reason we don't just blow up the building when bank robbers hold hostages. We claim to follow the teachings of Christ, show me where there's an exception for killing innocents when you don't like the people behind them. But then we get back to point #2, they are not innocent in your mind and they have it coming. That's barbaric thinking whether you admit it or not.
So again, what makes you tick? Are you Jewish, a Zionist Christian, or just a boomer that hasn't updated your opinions in forty years despite the world changing? Not trying to be rude here, but you have constructed a worldview that justifies the wholesale slaughter of civilians. I'd like to know why.
Edit: I've made it very clear what makes me tick, it's Christ's teaching that we be kind to others. I'd like for other to do the same rather than tortured logic that somehow civilians have it coming. That's an indefensible position so something is affecting your thinking.
No, I don’t believe that all the Palestinians should be wiped off from the face of the earth unlike many of the Palestinians, Palestinian supporters in this country, and around the world who would like to see Israel wiped off the face of the earth.
Yes, there is a lot of history concerning Israel beginning in the book of Genesis. There was never a Palestine until AD 70 with the destruction of the Jewish temple by Roman Emperor Hadrian. He denied the Jews access to their ancient capital, Jerusalem, and renamed it Aelia Capitolina. He also erected a temple to Jupiter on the sacred ground of the Temple Mount. Then he renamed Israel after their Biblical enemies the Philistines. He called it Palaestina (Palestine). After the Second Jewish Revolt, Hadrian erased all traces of Jewish identity from the land. My source is Israel Always by Christopher J. Katulka. Another great resource is From Time Immemorial The Origins of the Arab-Jewish Conflict over Palestine by Joan Peters. Of course the greatest resource is the Holy Bible. God gave that land to Israel. It’s an everlasting covenant. So that gives away that I am a Zionist. I am also a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. There is not an easy fix to this war, but I know from God’s word that He has a plan and He will see it through to the end. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever (Hebrews 13:8).
I agree with the historical parts, though I would contend that God took away the right to the land when Israel broke covenant by refusing to recognize their Messiah (which is consistent with them not getting it back for over 1000 years). That does not, however, mean that I don't support the right of modern-day Israel to protect their own peace and security against war and terrorism - just that their right to that area of land today is given by humans rather than by God.
No doubt even that would make me a "Zionist" to many pro-Hamas advocates...
He didn’t break His Covenant with them, because He is the one who instituted it. It is also an everlasting Covenant. If God would break His Covenant with Israel, then what is to say He wouldn’t break His Covenant with us when we disobey. I can dare say that not one of us live sinless lives.
God still has a plan for Israel. Read Romans 9-11 especially 11.
Because that Covenant had terms that it would last so long as Israel kept all of his Commandments. And he gave them a ton of chances to sign back on after breaking it repeatedly. As it is written, the Law was a teacher to show us that perfection of ourselves is not possible, which is why the new covenant is a covenant of grace, which he promises freely to everyone on only one condition - that they "remain in him".
Abraham was saved by grace through faith (Genesis 15:6). This was reiterated in the New Testament (Galatians 3; Acts 3:25; Romans 4:1-16, 9-11; Hebrews 6:13; James 2:21,23). The law also showed the Israelites how sinful they were, and that they weren’t able to keep it perfectly. The Old Testament pointed to the Messiah, and the New Testament revealed Him. The New Covenant was spoken of in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New Testament (Genesis 3:15; Jeremiah 23:5-8, 31:27-40; Hebrews 10; Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, etc). Grace means unmerited favor. It is not something that we can earn. It is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-10). God doesn’t give a gift and then take it away if we don’t remain in Him. The Holy Spirit is given when we are born again. He is our guarantee that we belong to Him (EPH 1:13-14). No believer is 100% faithful all of the time. We are still sinners in need of God’s grace every day moment by moment. Thank God that when we do sin, we have a great High Priest that we can go to boldly in our time of need. “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all righteousness (1John 1:9). God promises the New Covenant to all who believe in Him! “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16).”
IMO Jesus death was retroactive, so all faithful Israelites were saved by grace, they just didn't know it. Salvation isn't something that God "takes away" due to our failure, so much as that we (can) throw it away if we turn our backs on him (though, it's hard to imagine why anyone would want to... but clearly it is possible, Heb. 6:4-6).
Unlike you, I don't call people names and actually post thoughtful comments when people say things I don't like. But I'll make an exception this time, get bent.
You're not going to shut me up by throwing insults at me. Amazing how these people supposedly despise this activity when the left does it, but it's then their first impulse when someone gores their ox.
So what nerve did I touch, are you Jewish or a Zionist Christian?
Hi Jeff, I wonder if I could impose on you a moment, and ask you to give some clarification on your theological position. I read here with great interest comments about why Christians should or should not support Israel, and it's clear there's a major divide amongst the faithful. Each proponent seems very, very certain they've got the correct interpretation but WHAT is the interpretation and where did it come from? I do not ask to provoke, but to represent the confused on this site as to what these cryptic statements mean. WHY is Israel bad? WHY are Christians who don't see what you see so off base? And not because you believe the Israelis are massacring innocent's, but your theological underpinnings. What are they, and who are some solid authors you can recommend I read so I can better understand your position. Thank you in advance!
I don't support either side nor do I view one side as being "correct". I simply view what's going on in light of Christ's explicit and unambiguous command that we be kind to each other. I judge Israel by it's actions, not by what some mega-church pastor claims the Bible says. I'm capable of reading the Bible (and have done so) and thinking for myself, and I cannot reconcile the actions of "God's chosen people" with Christ's teaching. It's really that simple. A country cannot kill civilians by the tens of thousands and claim to follow Christ. But of course they don't claim to follow Christ but are avowedly and proudly non-Christian.
However, we do claim to follow Christ yet we mindlessly support this non-Christian country in the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians. It makes no difference which side we think is "right" but that we are complicit in evil. Again, it's that simple. And as long as we support it, Israel will not stop it. They may not stop it even if we withdraw support but then at least we won't be active participants.
I was once a non-thinking Evangelical who enthusiastically supported Israel based on a bunch of hacked together Bible passages that I was taught meant we had to support Israel. What woke me up was the sheer brutality of Israel's actions after 10/7. I could not call myself a Christian and support obvious evil.
In answer to your question, I wrote about how I came out of the cult (IMO) of Dispensationalism here if you are interested:
Interestingly enough, I take a quite similar theological position to Jeff's, yet I end up different politically because IMO the facts show that Israel is being (relatively) reasonable in defending themselves and that the blame should be primarily on Hamas and their genocidal attempts to slaughter the Jews as commanded by (radical) Islam.
I 100% agree however that Israel does NOT get unquestioning support and is not in any way divinely justified by God to do whatever they like, and if I thought they really were doing intentional war crimes then I would be opposed to them.
Thank you for weighing in, TB. This is a subject that interests me very much, how Christians "should" view Israel and/or the Jewish people. I am what you'd probably call a classic dispensationalist, and I hold to a belief in the rapture, the coming Millennial Kingdom, etc. I'm not going to spend column inches defending myself, but will say that it's a position I think a lot about - I don't just nebulously go along. I also (for reasons I'm not going into) attend a Presbyterian church and their theology is radically different to mine as it pertains to Israel. They are sound with the gospel, so I stay because I want to know why they believe as they do. So far I have not been convinced by the "church is spiritual Israel" doctrine, but as long as we agree that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior I hold my peace.
I think that national Israel has shown remarkable restraint. I think the claims of genocide are absurd and based on numbers provided by Israel's enemies. I believe that jews must come to God through Jesus, like everyone else. I believe it is my duty as a Christian to pray for that. I understand that Israel is currently very secular and conducts its business much as other nations do. But I believe God's got his eye on them, and when it seems like all is lost, he's going to help with a display of power that will probably make some people insane. Maybe even some who call themselves Christians.
Great. Keep studying. If you're interested, I suggest looking into Preterism (though take care that it's the orthodox variety, and not the heresy version that says that ALL prophecy is already fulfilled including the resurrection). It was eye-opening to me to discover that much of what is often seen as future prophecy is better understood as predicting 1st-century events.
Even though I don't see any specific prophecies involving Israel as a nation, I'm still on board with praying and hoping for individual Jews as well as the entire nation to turn to their Savior who, as it is written, "hold out his arms to them". Salvation through faith alone in Christ alone, y'know...
What's your source for the 36,000? Hamas? They have been known to fake films of dead civilians. They also don't care how many Gazans die as long as they can hurt Israel from their cushy palaces in Qattar.
What's your solution then BE, Israel kills every last Palestinian using US dollars, weapons, political cover, and military support? Because that's the road we're on.
Israel has killed or maimed about 5% of the Gaza population and shows no sign of letting up. There death toll is now about 30 times that of what Hamas did on 10/7 (35,000 killed). Gaza is in ruins. It is indiscriminate with zero differentiation between civilians (who are 2/3's women and children) and legitimate military targets. When pressed on this, the Israelis just lie and deny it's all happening, or claim they are all "terrorists".
Israel has an obligation to figure something out. They don't get a free pass to kill civilians by the truckload whenever they think the Palestinians get too uppity. That's been their strategy for forty years paid for by our tax dollars. How's it worked out? All it's done is left a mountain of dead bodies and demonstrated how bloodthirsty those running Israel actually are.
I don't usually talk like this but God is going to judge those who go along with this (particularly those who twist the Bible to defend it). One cannot slaughter civilians by the tens of thousands and claim it's some moral, righteous cause.
They can wipe each off the map. That’s my solution. It’s a 2000 year old war and we should NOT be involved
If the whole area was part of Israel, that might be better. Israel’s government seems to do a pretty good job taking care of all citizens, whether Jewish or not, including allowing Arabs to participate in the government. And if Israel was in charge of the whole area, they could close up the underground tunnels, use their police force to root out the terrorists and jail them, take better care of the innocent civilians currently ignored by Hamas, etc. Seems like it would at least be better than the current status quo.
First of all Hamaz started the war, and Hamaz was voted in by the Palestinian people. Hamaz, being the cowards they are, hide in high population areas and hospitals. They have built an intricate tunnel structure all throughout Gaza where they hide. They care less for their people than Israel does. They use them as shields. Israel willingly gave up the Gaza Strip in order to make peace with the Palestinians, but the Palestinians don’t want peace. They have continually bombed Israel over the years. Thank God for the Iron Dome!
https://www.frontpagemag.com/the-idf-takes-more-steps-to-warn-civilians-away-from-combat-areas-than-any-other-military/
https://www.frontpagemag.com/what-percentage-of-those-killed-by-the-idf-in-gaza-were-civilians/
First, Hamas didn't start the war, it started in 1948 (edit: actually even earlier with Zionist extremist attacks in the area. Read about the King David Hotel bombing among other things). There is history here.
Second, those elections were two decades ago, a huge number of Gazans weren't even born. Plus your argument is a non-sequitur. By your logic, US Elementary school students are legitimate military targets since George Bush's election (twice) led to the invasion of Iraq and hundreds of thousands of deaths.
Third, what Hamas has done to hide behind civilians is irrelevant. Evil is evil. If bad guys hide behind civilian you don't get a moral free pass to kill the civilians to get to them. That's the reason we don't just blow up the building when bank robbers hold hostages. We claim to follow the teachings of Christ, show me where there's an exception for killing innocents when you don't like the people behind them. But then we get back to point #2, they are not innocent in your mind and they have it coming. That's barbaric thinking whether you admit it or not.
So again, what makes you tick? Are you Jewish, a Zionist Christian, or just a boomer that hasn't updated your opinions in forty years despite the world changing? Not trying to be rude here, but you have constructed a worldview that justifies the wholesale slaughter of civilians. I'd like to know why.
Edit: I've made it very clear what makes me tick, it's Christ's teaching that we be kind to others. I'd like for other to do the same rather than tortured logic that somehow civilians have it coming. That's an indefensible position so something is affecting your thinking.
No, I don’t believe that all the Palestinians should be wiped off from the face of the earth unlike many of the Palestinians, Palestinian supporters in this country, and around the world who would like to see Israel wiped off the face of the earth.
Yes, there is a lot of history concerning Israel beginning in the book of Genesis. There was never a Palestine until AD 70 with the destruction of the Jewish temple by Roman Emperor Hadrian. He denied the Jews access to their ancient capital, Jerusalem, and renamed it Aelia Capitolina. He also erected a temple to Jupiter on the sacred ground of the Temple Mount. Then he renamed Israel after their Biblical enemies the Philistines. He called it Palaestina (Palestine). After the Second Jewish Revolt, Hadrian erased all traces of Jewish identity from the land. My source is Israel Always by Christopher J. Katulka. Another great resource is From Time Immemorial The Origins of the Arab-Jewish Conflict over Palestine by Joan Peters. Of course the greatest resource is the Holy Bible. God gave that land to Israel. It’s an everlasting covenant. So that gives away that I am a Zionist. I am also a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. There is not an easy fix to this war, but I know from God’s word that He has a plan and He will see it through to the end. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever (Hebrews 13:8).
I agree with the historical parts, though I would contend that God took away the right to the land when Israel broke covenant by refusing to recognize their Messiah (which is consistent with them not getting it back for over 1000 years). That does not, however, mean that I don't support the right of modern-day Israel to protect their own peace and security against war and terrorism - just that their right to that area of land today is given by humans rather than by God.
No doubt even that would make me a "Zionist" to many pro-Hamas advocates...
He didn’t break His Covenant with them, because He is the one who instituted it. It is also an everlasting Covenant. If God would break His Covenant with Israel, then what is to say He wouldn’t break His Covenant with us when we disobey. I can dare say that not one of us live sinless lives.
God still has a plan for Israel. Read Romans 9-11 especially 11.
Because that Covenant had terms that it would last so long as Israel kept all of his Commandments. And he gave them a ton of chances to sign back on after breaking it repeatedly. As it is written, the Law was a teacher to show us that perfection of ourselves is not possible, which is why the new covenant is a covenant of grace, which he promises freely to everyone on only one condition - that they "remain in him".
Abraham was saved by grace through faith (Genesis 15:6). This was reiterated in the New Testament (Galatians 3; Acts 3:25; Romans 4:1-16, 9-11; Hebrews 6:13; James 2:21,23). The law also showed the Israelites how sinful they were, and that they weren’t able to keep it perfectly. The Old Testament pointed to the Messiah, and the New Testament revealed Him. The New Covenant was spoken of in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New Testament (Genesis 3:15; Jeremiah 23:5-8, 31:27-40; Hebrews 10; Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, etc). Grace means unmerited favor. It is not something that we can earn. It is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8-10). God doesn’t give a gift and then take it away if we don’t remain in Him. The Holy Spirit is given when we are born again. He is our guarantee that we belong to Him (EPH 1:13-14). No believer is 100% faithful all of the time. We are still sinners in need of God’s grace every day moment by moment. Thank God that when we do sin, we have a great High Priest that we can go to boldly in our time of need. “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all righteousness (1John 1:9). God promises the New Covenant to all who believe in Him! “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16).”
IMO Jesus death was retroactive, so all faithful Israelites were saved by grace, they just didn't know it. Salvation isn't something that God "takes away" due to our failure, so much as that we (can) throw it away if we turn our backs on him (though, it's hard to imagine why anyone would want to... but clearly it is possible, Heb. 6:4-6).
I would also recommend FOR ZION’S SAKE Christian Zionism and the Role of John Nelson Darby by Paul Richard Wilkinson.
The Case For ZIONISM Why Christians Should Support Israel by Thomas Ice.
Holy propaganda, Jeff C! Your numbers have been refuted UN/Hamas BS for quite some time. Antisemitic much?
Unlike you, I don't call people names and actually post thoughtful comments when people say things I don't like. But I'll make an exception this time, get bent.
You're not going to shut me up by throwing insults at me. Amazing how these people supposedly despise this activity when the left does it, but it's then their first impulse when someone gores their ox.
So what nerve did I touch, are you Jewish or a Zionist Christian?
Hi Jeff, I wonder if I could impose on you a moment, and ask you to give some clarification on your theological position. I read here with great interest comments about why Christians should or should not support Israel, and it's clear there's a major divide amongst the faithful. Each proponent seems very, very certain they've got the correct interpretation but WHAT is the interpretation and where did it come from? I do not ask to provoke, but to represent the confused on this site as to what these cryptic statements mean. WHY is Israel bad? WHY are Christians who don't see what you see so off base? And not because you believe the Israelis are massacring innocent's, but your theological underpinnings. What are they, and who are some solid authors you can recommend I read so I can better understand your position. Thank you in advance!
Hi Miss Teacup, thanks for a thoughtful comment.
I don't support either side nor do I view one side as being "correct". I simply view what's going on in light of Christ's explicit and unambiguous command that we be kind to each other. I judge Israel by it's actions, not by what some mega-church pastor claims the Bible says. I'm capable of reading the Bible (and have done so) and thinking for myself, and I cannot reconcile the actions of "God's chosen people" with Christ's teaching. It's really that simple. A country cannot kill civilians by the tens of thousands and claim to follow Christ. But of course they don't claim to follow Christ but are avowedly and proudly non-Christian.
However, we do claim to follow Christ yet we mindlessly support this non-Christian country in the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians. It makes no difference which side we think is "right" but that we are complicit in evil. Again, it's that simple. And as long as we support it, Israel will not stop it. They may not stop it even if we withdraw support but then at least we won't be active participants.
I was once a non-thinking Evangelical who enthusiastically supported Israel based on a bunch of hacked together Bible passages that I was taught meant we had to support Israel. What woke me up was the sheer brutality of Israel's actions after 10/7. I could not call myself a Christian and support obvious evil.
In answer to your question, I wrote about how I came out of the cult (IMO) of Dispensationalism here if you are interested:
https://revmatthewlittlefield.substack.com/p/why-cant-many-christians-see-obvious/comment/51287697
The post I was replying to is well worth reading by an an Australian pastor, "Why can't many Christians see obvious evil?"
https://revmatthewlittlefield.substack.com/p/why-cant-many-christians-see-obvious
Thanks, I read the links. You have come more clearly into focus for me.
Interestingly enough, I take a quite similar theological position to Jeff's, yet I end up different politically because IMO the facts show that Israel is being (relatively) reasonable in defending themselves and that the blame should be primarily on Hamas and their genocidal attempts to slaughter the Jews as commanded by (radical) Islam.
I 100% agree however that Israel does NOT get unquestioning support and is not in any way divinely justified by God to do whatever they like, and if I thought they really were doing intentional war crimes then I would be opposed to them.
Thank you for weighing in, TB. This is a subject that interests me very much, how Christians "should" view Israel and/or the Jewish people. I am what you'd probably call a classic dispensationalist, and I hold to a belief in the rapture, the coming Millennial Kingdom, etc. I'm not going to spend column inches defending myself, but will say that it's a position I think a lot about - I don't just nebulously go along. I also (for reasons I'm not going into) attend a Presbyterian church and their theology is radically different to mine as it pertains to Israel. They are sound with the gospel, so I stay because I want to know why they believe as they do. So far I have not been convinced by the "church is spiritual Israel" doctrine, but as long as we agree that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior I hold my peace.
I think that national Israel has shown remarkable restraint. I think the claims of genocide are absurd and based on numbers provided by Israel's enemies. I believe that jews must come to God through Jesus, like everyone else. I believe it is my duty as a Christian to pray for that. I understand that Israel is currently very secular and conducts its business much as other nations do. But I believe God's got his eye on them, and when it seems like all is lost, he's going to help with a display of power that will probably make some people insane. Maybe even some who call themselves Christians.
Great. Keep studying. If you're interested, I suggest looking into Preterism (though take care that it's the orthodox variety, and not the heresy version that says that ALL prophecy is already fulfilled including the resurrection). It was eye-opening to me to discover that much of what is often seen as future prophecy is better understood as predicting 1st-century events.
Even though I don't see any specific prophecies involving Israel as a nation, I'm still on board with praying and hoping for individual Jews as well as the entire nation to turn to their Savior who, as it is written, "hold out his arms to them". Salvation through faith alone in Christ alone, y'know...
Yes, I'm familiar with Preterism, thanks.
On this blog, there's zero discussion from the author about the children that are blown up daily in Gaza - at our hands.
Because it's the biblical land of the Chosen People, and possibly a crime in Florida to criticize the bombers.
So we talk about Ukraine and Covid deaths, but not the 36,000 in Gaza.
What's your source for the 36,000? Hamas? They have been known to fake films of dead civilians. They also don't care how many Gazans die as long as they can hurt Israel from their cushy palaces in Qattar.
Absolutely.