90% of people's opposition to EVs is based on ignorance - they still think of EVs as though its 1998 and the GM EV1 is the top of the line, and that all its downsides are still common
Charging really is fast, batteries last longer than gas engines(if its large enough capacity and has active thermal management), winter is no bar to travel …
90% of people's opposition to EVs is based on ignorance - they still think of EVs as though its 1998 and the GM EV1 is the top of the line, and that all its downsides are still common
Charging really is fast, batteries last longer than gas engines(if its large enough capacity and has active thermal management), winter is no bar to travel (my last winter trip was 630 miles driving in 1 day, only 15m longer than gas and we could have gone 200 more miles if needed) and no they aren't a high fire risk
Purchase price is the one real downside
If we didn't have a travel trailer I wouldn't have a gas vehicle at all. When the CT comes out it may very well be able to do the distance on a road trip, but since we didn't put down a deposit early enough its gonna be 5+ years before we could even get one.
No Dave, I object to the mining for battery components by children, the pollution from the strip mining, the FACT that they must be charged with the same power plants the west is hell bent on closing, and the question of safe disposal when the batteries reach end of life. But it's cool because it's "somewhere else."
Charging is not "really fast" when you're on the road and waiting in line for the one charger that works, charging still takes a long time and is more frequent than gas. And guess how much that replacement battery will set you back?
This tech is not ready for prime time, and I resent my taxes supporting rich people's expensive toys and undoubtedly making some of them richer for building this crap we don't need.
There's lots of places to get raw materials, not just in Africa. Australia, Norway, US, Canada. Its the legacy automakers that choose Africa as their source.
You don't dispose, you recycle. Recycling is not impossible now, its just the facilities haven't been built due to no present need for such things at scale today. You'll start to need that in about 10 years.
Yes charging is fast. I can quite assure you my two most common road trips are extended in their duration vs when we did them in gas by 5-15m. And some of that is just how much bathrooming, and how long it took for food service.
Not concerned about replacement cost of the battery because it should outlast a gas engine. Honestly, after 300k do you really think its worth a whole new pack? Refurbs if anything.
I oppose subsidies as well. Subsidies have slowed the development down because most mfgs have chased the subsidy instead of pursuing consumer desires. Subsidies encourage short range EVs over gas replacement EVs.
Perhaps I am ignorant, perhaps not, but I want nothing to do with EVs. I just went from OH to NJ, stopping no more than 15 minutes tops (each way) to put gas in the car. I got stuck in Philly traffic both ways and in snow on the way back. I could just imagine my EV dying on the freeway in the cold or downtown Philly, where there were people going up to cars and knocking on windows. I ran a red light to get away from an aggressive person. Also, I don't want to add hours to my trip to charge the thing - 10 hours on the road is enough. I can also picture it dying on the road if I ever had to evacuate. I can carry a gas can in the car. I can't carry an EV charger.
Then there's the issue that I need electricity to charge it, the same electricity that is generated by the fossil fuels the left yells about, plus the mining and pollution YYR mentioned. Last summer, power companies in CA shut off power to people simply because the grid couldn't handle it, or so they say. The PUCO is Ohio is investigating why AEP chose to randomly shut off power to part of Columbus for days last summer in a heat wave. Most have smart meters (I don't) that can be turned off remotely and lunatics in government who would be crazy enough to turn off power of anyone who will not comply. How do you charge your car? Obviously this has not happened yet, but I've seen plenty of crap over the past three years I thought I never would. I believe Teslas can be turned off remotely. Any company that has the ability to do that is dangerous.
Both my cars are bought and paid for in full. Both work. I see no point in shelling out 60 grand for a new EV plus another 25 grand WHEN the battery dies in a few years. I can buy a lot of gas for 85 grand and a used gas car for a lot less than that.
Until someone makes an EV with the equivalent of an alternator that charges the battery as the car runs, until the price becomes reasonable, until mining for lithium becomes child-labor free, until there is a solid recycling plan, and until I am convinced no one can turn off the car remotely, this will be a solid pass from me.
You didn't say where in OH or NJ, but if I may provide an estimate based on a couple cities at the far edges of each state.
Cincinnati to Atlantic City is 630 miles
In seasonal March weather, Model 3 LR AWD, my preferred route planner estimates 58 minutes of charging over 4 charging stops (7, 12, 28, and 11 minutes).
Gas or electric I fully expect on a 630 mile drive to have 1hr of stopping minimum, and closer to 90 minutes actually..
"Remote shutoff" is actually impossible to prevent a user from disrupting.
Remove the modem and 'remote shutoff' becomes impossible. If its soldered in place so it couldn't be removed you'd need to cut the antenna, solder on a resister (dummy load) and then wrap it in foil for good measure.
Tesla's do not need a connection to operate, they only need it for convenience.
While I don't presently have a means to generate electricity at home, generating electricity at home is a whole lot easier than refining gasoline - which they of course plan to shut off.
If an EV could have an alternator that charged the battery as the car runs it would never need charging ever. That would be a perpetual motion machine which of course defies the laws of physics and so is impossible.
I appreciate the reply, but I have neither the expertise nor desire to modify things like antennas, etc. I am not capable nor comfortable messing around with things I can't afford to fix if I make a mistake. Mechanics is not my thing. The car should just have an "off" switch for tracking rather than someone messing with it just to get privacy. My old car has no GPS and no tracking and I like that.
I also don't have the means nor the money to generate electricity at home. Even if it existed, it's not feasible for many. Passing through Philly I noticed the unbelievably dense housing units and crowding. How would those who lived in those huge buildings generate their own power? They could not. And, I mentioned before, AEP randomly shut off power for days in a heat wave last summer in Columbus, Ohio. They're under investigation for it. I don't need to be stranded at home due to my power being off. I need to get to work reliably so I can continue to eat and live indoors.
The stoppage of refining oil means no petroleum products, which means no plastics. Right now the system is not in place to completely recycle and reuse all plastics, so for the short term, refined oil is here to stay. Virtually every industry depends on it in some way, including the medical industry. I'm not going to worry about not having gasoline. If we get to that point, I have a feeling there will be one hell of a mess on everyone's hands. No diesel means no food delivery, no medicine, no replacement parts/things to fix your home coming to a Home Depot, no nothing. How many of us are fully self sufficient? I'd say the Amish in northern Ohio come close, but the rest of us aren't.
Columbus to OCNJ, by the way.
I'm glad you're comfortable with EVs and can afford one. I'm not comfortable and see no rational reason whatsoever to spend an insane amount of money (read: go into debt for at least 60K) on something that will need a new battery in a few years (another 25K), especially when I own two fully paid for cars. Buying something I can't afford and don't need or want is is pure insanity, not to mention it means I would have terrible money handling skills. I'll still pass. Call me ignorant if you want, but at least I won't be in debt.
Curious Dave, do you have a financial connection to the electric vehicle industry?
You start off by saying those that still prefer ICE vehicles are ignorant dolts (good way to win the audience over). You then make the laughable claim that charging is fast, fast compared to what? Not compared to filling my tank at the gas station. You then brush aside real concerns regarding loss of range and torque in cold weather (that have been amply documented).
You ignore the fact that these cars are being totaled in minor accidents as no one really understands how to assess battery damage. You ignore the environmental damage from the required rare earth element mining. You also ignore the fact that the power grid cannot support a wholesale switch to electric cars and will likely cost hundreds of billions to upgrade it, assuming it can even be done.
If you like electric cars that's great, knock yourself out. But don't come on here calling the rest of us stupid for not sharing your infatuation.
Just a vehicle owner who wants to make sure that the freedom and benefits of the existence of personal transportation doesn't end any time soon.
Have to set the precedent that long-range, and private ownership is the way its gonna be, not 'rent a commuter-box if your social credit allows'
I did not say that ICE vehicle owners are ignorant dolts. I said 90% of people's opposition to EVs is based on ignorance. That is not an insult. That is a statement of fact. If you do not know of something, but you make claims on it, you are making claims in ignorance.
The most frequent and notorious example of what I'm talking about being "you have to swap the battery every 5 years for $20k"
You sound like a college kid telling a Cuban refugee about the wonders of communism.
I am experience and I'm telling you who are inexperienced, you don't know jack diddly squat.
Commuter stuck in a snowjam -
Standard practice among EV owners is 80% charge for daily driving
Say you have a 60 mile commute round trip. A vehicle with a 75kw battery starts with 60kw in it at 80%. A 60 mile round trip commute requires about 20kw in winter.
This means you have 40 kw to keep warm with in a snowstorm. It takes 1-2kw per hour to heat the cabin. So while you are parked you have 20-40 hours of heat.
If I was on a road trip then I'm being responsible and looking at the weather and the road ahead. Snowstorms don't just magically appear out of nowhere after all. IA truck stop parking lot is a heck of a lot more comfortable than a ditch, and less costly than a tow/wreck.
I alter my travel plans all the time in winter. When I visit my folks its 400 miles away. If a snowstorm is forecast to coincide with my drive I leave the day before. Yes it sucks to lose a day visiting my folks. Would suck worse if dangerous road conditions lead to never seeing us again.
On serious ding though, note two humble-yet-magic words: energy density. These are from physics fundamentals no wishful thinking can override 🙂
🗨 About 60 pounds of batteries are needed to store the energy equivalent to that in one pound of hydrocarbons. Meanwhile, 50–100 pounds of various materials are mined, moved, and processed for one pound of battery produced.
🗨 In rough terms, it requires the energy equivalent of about 100 barrels of oil to fabricate a quantity of batteries that can store a single barrel of oil-equivalent energy.
Ok, let's transfer to aural plane 😂 You sound like a butthurt brat whose cherished toy was [grossly unfairly!] badmouthed by random jackass on interwebz: How on earth dare they! 😤
90% of people's opposition to EVs is based on ignorance - they still think of EVs as though its 1998 and the GM EV1 is the top of the line, and that all its downsides are still common
Charging really is fast, batteries last longer than gas engines(if its large enough capacity and has active thermal management), winter is no bar to travel (my last winter trip was 630 miles driving in 1 day, only 15m longer than gas and we could have gone 200 more miles if needed) and no they aren't a high fire risk
Purchase price is the one real downside
If we didn't have a travel trailer I wouldn't have a gas vehicle at all. When the CT comes out it may very well be able to do the distance on a road trip, but since we didn't put down a deposit early enough its gonna be 5+ years before we could even get one.
No Dave, I object to the mining for battery components by children, the pollution from the strip mining, the FACT that they must be charged with the same power plants the west is hell bent on closing, and the question of safe disposal when the batteries reach end of life. But it's cool because it's "somewhere else."
Charging is not "really fast" when you're on the road and waiting in line for the one charger that works, charging still takes a long time and is more frequent than gas. And guess how much that replacement battery will set you back?
This tech is not ready for prime time, and I resent my taxes supporting rich people's expensive toys and undoubtedly making some of them richer for building this crap we don't need.
There's lots of places to get raw materials, not just in Africa. Australia, Norway, US, Canada. Its the legacy automakers that choose Africa as their source.
You don't dispose, you recycle. Recycling is not impossible now, its just the facilities haven't been built due to no present need for such things at scale today. You'll start to need that in about 10 years.
Yes charging is fast. I can quite assure you my two most common road trips are extended in their duration vs when we did them in gas by 5-15m. And some of that is just how much bathrooming, and how long it took for food service.
Not concerned about replacement cost of the battery because it should outlast a gas engine. Honestly, after 300k do you really think its worth a whole new pack? Refurbs if anything.
I oppose subsidies as well. Subsidies have slowed the development down because most mfgs have chased the subsidy instead of pursuing consumer desires. Subsidies encourage short range EVs over gas replacement EVs.
Perhaps I am ignorant, perhaps not, but I want nothing to do with EVs. I just went from OH to NJ, stopping no more than 15 minutes tops (each way) to put gas in the car. I got stuck in Philly traffic both ways and in snow on the way back. I could just imagine my EV dying on the freeway in the cold or downtown Philly, where there were people going up to cars and knocking on windows. I ran a red light to get away from an aggressive person. Also, I don't want to add hours to my trip to charge the thing - 10 hours on the road is enough. I can also picture it dying on the road if I ever had to evacuate. I can carry a gas can in the car. I can't carry an EV charger.
Then there's the issue that I need electricity to charge it, the same electricity that is generated by the fossil fuels the left yells about, plus the mining and pollution YYR mentioned. Last summer, power companies in CA shut off power to people simply because the grid couldn't handle it, or so they say. The PUCO is Ohio is investigating why AEP chose to randomly shut off power to part of Columbus for days last summer in a heat wave. Most have smart meters (I don't) that can be turned off remotely and lunatics in government who would be crazy enough to turn off power of anyone who will not comply. How do you charge your car? Obviously this has not happened yet, but I've seen plenty of crap over the past three years I thought I never would. I believe Teslas can be turned off remotely. Any company that has the ability to do that is dangerous.
Both my cars are bought and paid for in full. Both work. I see no point in shelling out 60 grand for a new EV plus another 25 grand WHEN the battery dies in a few years. I can buy a lot of gas for 85 grand and a used gas car for a lot less than that.
Until someone makes an EV with the equivalent of an alternator that charges the battery as the car runs, until the price becomes reasonable, until mining for lithium becomes child-labor free, until there is a solid recycling plan, and until I am convinced no one can turn off the car remotely, this will be a solid pass from me.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4hZ_xzrgNIc/YHyYzjWZToI/AAAAAAAAQlc/PvOqrupWxvUbKXkl_cNkmOi-9TQ94e3mACLcBGAsYHQ/w640-h422/electric%2Bcar.png
You didn't say where in OH or NJ, but if I may provide an estimate based on a couple cities at the far edges of each state.
Cincinnati to Atlantic City is 630 miles
In seasonal March weather, Model 3 LR AWD, my preferred route planner estimates 58 minutes of charging over 4 charging stops (7, 12, 28, and 11 minutes).
Gas or electric I fully expect on a 630 mile drive to have 1hr of stopping minimum, and closer to 90 minutes actually..
"Remote shutoff" is actually impossible to prevent a user from disrupting.
Remove the modem and 'remote shutoff' becomes impossible. If its soldered in place so it couldn't be removed you'd need to cut the antenna, solder on a resister (dummy load) and then wrap it in foil for good measure.
Tesla's do not need a connection to operate, they only need it for convenience.
While I don't presently have a means to generate electricity at home, generating electricity at home is a whole lot easier than refining gasoline - which they of course plan to shut off.
If an EV could have an alternator that charged the battery as the car runs it would never need charging ever. That would be a perpetual motion machine which of course defies the laws of physics and so is impossible.
Last summer 2022 my x and his fiancé who live in the Bay Area were trying to charge their EV
But CA was doing their rolling black out routine and some of the grid just went down.
So they were stuck. Their a few miles out of town so no bus near by or Ubers.
I asked if they had some kind of powerful generator to possibly hook up to.
I had seen a meme last summer where someone had strapped a big generator to the back of their EV and drove around LA
In the end I believe they took a few days off and waited it out.
Not sure what happens to all those EV’s when CA shuts down each summer with those rolling blackouts
The lesson there is choose your domicile location wisely - don't live in a 3rd world state and expect to enjoy modern luxuries there
I appreciate the reply, but I have neither the expertise nor desire to modify things like antennas, etc. I am not capable nor comfortable messing around with things I can't afford to fix if I make a mistake. Mechanics is not my thing. The car should just have an "off" switch for tracking rather than someone messing with it just to get privacy. My old car has no GPS and no tracking and I like that.
I also don't have the means nor the money to generate electricity at home. Even if it existed, it's not feasible for many. Passing through Philly I noticed the unbelievably dense housing units and crowding. How would those who lived in those huge buildings generate their own power? They could not. And, I mentioned before, AEP randomly shut off power for days in a heat wave last summer in Columbus, Ohio. They're under investigation for it. I don't need to be stranded at home due to my power being off. I need to get to work reliably so I can continue to eat and live indoors.
The stoppage of refining oil means no petroleum products, which means no plastics. Right now the system is not in place to completely recycle and reuse all plastics, so for the short term, refined oil is here to stay. Virtually every industry depends on it in some way, including the medical industry. I'm not going to worry about not having gasoline. If we get to that point, I have a feeling there will be one hell of a mess on everyone's hands. No diesel means no food delivery, no medicine, no replacement parts/things to fix your home coming to a Home Depot, no nothing. How many of us are fully self sufficient? I'd say the Amish in northern Ohio come close, but the rest of us aren't.
Columbus to OCNJ, by the way.
I'm glad you're comfortable with EVs and can afford one. I'm not comfortable and see no rational reason whatsoever to spend an insane amount of money (read: go into debt for at least 60K) on something that will need a new battery in a few years (another 25K), especially when I own two fully paid for cars. Buying something I can't afford and don't need or want is is pure insanity, not to mention it means I would have terrible money handling skills. I'll still pass. Call me ignorant if you want, but at least I won't be in debt.
Why do you think it would need a new 25k battery in a few years?
See these are the kinds of myths I'm talking about.
It is expected that the packs in current generation gas replacement EVs will last 300-500k miles. Darn near like buying one car and getting two.
Curious Dave, do you have a financial connection to the electric vehicle industry?
You start off by saying those that still prefer ICE vehicles are ignorant dolts (good way to win the audience over). You then make the laughable claim that charging is fast, fast compared to what? Not compared to filling my tank at the gas station. You then brush aside real concerns regarding loss of range and torque in cold weather (that have been amply documented).
You ignore the fact that these cars are being totaled in minor accidents as no one really understands how to assess battery damage. You ignore the environmental damage from the required rare earth element mining. You also ignore the fact that the power grid cannot support a wholesale switch to electric cars and will likely cost hundreds of billions to upgrade it, assuming it can even be done.
If you like electric cars that's great, knock yourself out. But don't come on here calling the rest of us stupid for not sharing your infatuation.
Just a vehicle owner who wants to make sure that the freedom and benefits of the existence of personal transportation doesn't end any time soon.
Have to set the precedent that long-range, and private ownership is the way its gonna be, not 'rent a commuter-box if your social credit allows'
I did not say that ICE vehicle owners are ignorant dolts. I said 90% of people's opposition to EVs is based on ignorance. That is not an insult. That is a statement of fact. If you do not know of something, but you make claims on it, you are making claims in ignorance.
The most frequent and notorious example of what I'm talking about being "you have to swap the battery every 5 years for $20k"
Ask peeps stuck in traffic jam during bad snowstorm 😝 Just a li'l detail, not even touching on the whole plain enormous 'sustainable' scam ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
They were comfortable the entire duration and drove away - it takes 1-2% per hour to keep the cabin at 60F
As I said, myths and ignorance
As I echo, myths and ignorance on your [amazingly gullible] part 😇🤭
You sound like a college kid telling a Cuban refugee about the wonders of communism.
I am experience and I'm telling you who are inexperienced, you don't know jack diddly squat.
Commuter stuck in a snowjam -
Standard practice among EV owners is 80% charge for daily driving
Say you have a 60 mile commute round trip. A vehicle with a 75kw battery starts with 60kw in it at 80%. A 60 mile round trip commute requires about 20kw in winter.
This means you have 40 kw to keep warm with in a snowstorm. It takes 1-2kw per hour to heat the cabin. So while you are parked you have 20-40 hours of heat.
If I was on a road trip then I'm being responsible and looking at the weather and the road ahead. Snowstorms don't just magically appear out of nowhere after all. IA truck stop parking lot is a heck of a lot more comfortable than a ditch, and less costly than a tow/wreck.
I alter my travel plans all the time in winter. When I visit my folks its 400 miles away. If a snowstorm is forecast to coincide with my drive I leave the day before. Yes it sucks to lose a day visiting my folks. Would suck worse if dangerous road conditions lead to never seeing us again.
On serious ding though, note two humble-yet-magic words: energy density. These are from physics fundamentals no wishful thinking can override 🙂
🗨 About 60 pounds of batteries are needed to store the energy equivalent to that in one pound of hydrocarbons. Meanwhile, 50–100 pounds of various materials are mined, moved, and processed for one pound of battery produced.
🗨 In rough terms, it requires the energy equivalent of about 100 barrels of oil to fabricate a quantity of batteries that can store a single barrel of oil-equivalent energy.
Maths matters (& it's not raycist nor Cuban communist 😉). Check it out for yourself if you're up to challenge your luxury beliefs --> manhattan-institute.org/green-energy-revolution-near-impossible
Ok, let's transfer to aural plane 😂 You sound like a butthurt brat whose cherished toy was [grossly unfairly!] badmouthed by random jackass on interwebz: How on earth dare they! 😤