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Jeff C's avatar

Joseph, with respect you are wrong. There absolutely is such a thing as race with quantifiable differences between them. There is large overlap, but GENERALLY there are definable characteristics that people of a common race share. Some behavioral differences result from culture no doubt, but even when normalizing for cultural influences, strong differences remain.

All people are loved by God and made in his image as the Bible declares. But please don't make observably false statements such as "there is no such thing as race". Anyone who lives in reality knows this isn't true.

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Fla Mom's avatar

In medicine, we used to be taught that there were biological differences between races and sexes regarding such things as which blood pressure drug worked best. Some blood test parameters vary as well. I read not long ago that (a lab? some labs?) were doing away with reporting separate result ranges for normal results, so those with less experience, a poorer memory for numbers, or lack of access to pre-DEI lab value ranges might miss a significant problem in a patient. It's true that there are more and more mixed-race people, so with a lot of time there may indeed be less need for careful evaluation of lab values and dug effects, but in the meantime it's just one more example of ignoring reality to virtue-signal, but in a very dangerous way.

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Irunthis1's avatar

This is a significant problem and it reared its ugly head with regard to kidney transplant patients. The definition of renal failure varies depending on a persons genetic race in that what is “normal” value for African American patient would be in the failure or near failure range for Caucasian patients. This was kicking white people out of line for kidney transplant when they were far sicker than their African American counterparts who were fairly renally stable.

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Fla Mom's avatar

Thanks, run, that may indeed have been the example I was trying to recall but couldn't.

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Politico Phil's avatar

So, you want to use these medically observed differences to define race. Explain to me how genetic variability in the human race becomes the basis for maintaining that there is therefore a whole new species or race. This is logical junk.

Please define "race" for me and then explain how that all works to your position... in a logical manner. I only ask in the hopes that, perhaps, you may rethink your presuppositions about reality.

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patrick.net/memes's avatar

"A longstanding orthodoxy among social scientists holds that human races are a social construct and have no biological basis. A related assumption is that human evolution halted in the distant past, so long ago that evolutionary explanations need never be considered by historians or economists."

https://time.com/91081/what-science-says-about-race-and-genetics/

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David A's avatar

A scientist does not speak for science. The disparate physical characteristics of races have application today in many different ways, and suseptibility to disease.

The spiritual nature is however universal, as are the flaws and dark side of mankind.

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Copernicus's avatar

😡

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patrick.net/memes's avatar

Oh absolutely. Even given just a single tooth, it is possible to distinguish European from African:

https://analyticalscience.wiley.com/content/news-do/human-teeth-europe-and-africa-different

And that's just one method. I've read that teeth also fluoresce differently between the different races.

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Lisa Ca's avatar

❤️ Great point.

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Politico Phil's avatar

Jeff - and Fl Man - with respect, this is wrong. This is a fallacy of woke racism and Marxist division. We are using the wrong definition of "race". There is ONLY one human race - period. If...all of humanity came from one set of parents then there can be only one human race. Of course, I'm referring to the Biblical account. I have also seen genetic studies that concluded that all of mankind originally came from one set of parents. WE ARE ALL RELATED. Classifying observable differences in the human race as "races" is an erroneous definition and plays right into the hands of the Marxists and the eugenicists.

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Fla Mom's avatar

I think you're wrong biologically, Phil; how about dog breeds? Presumably, there was one Ur-dog, one 'kind' ("two of every kind," Gen. 6:20a, as explained by Answers in Genesis below; variety among 'kinds' is also explained there, or simply by watching people create new breeds of all kinds of domestic animals in our lifetimes). Dog breeds now are so different from one another that a food or medicine that can be given to most can be fatal in others. That came about by breeding in isolation, as happened with humans over time in geographic areas that were far apart. Dogs are also all related, so much so that they can physically breed among themselves, but that doesn't erase the differences between Collies, Chihuahuas, and Central Asian Shepherd Dogs. Humans are all "created equal," because we are all made in the image of God. That doesn't make us equal materially on Earth, in many respects, though we are biologically very similar. See my other comment in this thread about race and sex differences in lab values and medication effects.

https://answersingenesis.org/creation-science/baraminology/what-are-kinds-in-genesis/

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Politico Phil's avatar

Biologically? Of course. I am biologically quite different from my own children and I daresay have different medical or drug tolerances. But that doesn't mean they are a new "race". Again, this is a problem of definition. "One kind" or one race. Ever see a dog breed with a cat? (I'm sure there is a eugenics lab somewhere trying to cross-breed such abominations in spite of that.) Ever see different "dog breeds" breed with each other? Again, of course. We call them mutts. Biological differences do not define race. Is there a "Spanish race" or an "African race" or a "Russian race" or, in my case, a "Celtic race" or, and here is where the manipulators get really ugly, a "White race" or a "Black race" or a "Yellow race"??? If we allow our language that defines our perception of reality to be manipulated by evil which wants to turn God's reality on it's head then we will never be free of the woke Marxism that has taken over our culture.

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Fla Mom's avatar

Phil, you are being purposely obtuse. You counter a population-level trait with one within a nuclear family? Race is biological and physiological, and it's the result of separate breeding populations over very long periods of time. It's a convenient word to encompass books worth of information. Race : breed as human : dog. It has nothing to do with denying Scripture.

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Politico Phil's avatar

There are different looking people, there are different cultures...there are all kinds of different genetic combinations resulting in different biological and physiological characteristics but I challenge you to prove to me that they are alien races from each other! All of these genetic differences are contained in the very genetic code in your own body. WHY? Because we are all from the same family - breed - race - however you label it, we are all human and in that sense, there is NO DIFFERENCE IN GOD'S EYES. We are human beings - one race.

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Politico Phil's avatar

The worst part of your statement is that "It has nothing to do with denying Scripture." It has everything to do with Scripture. God created all mankind in Adam and Eve. Unless you deny that, God's Word tells us that we are all from the SAME PARENTS or the same gene pool. One cannot say we are different races without subverting language and logical thought.

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Jeff C's avatar

Not true Phil, unless you deny species adaptation (not the same as evolution) takes place as I explain below.

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Politico Phil's avatar

So... you hold to Darwinian evolution of one species into another completely different species. Have fun with that.

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Jeff C's avatar

Please Phil, you know I didn't say that as my other lengthy comment makes clear. Your comment is absurd.

Starting a response with "So... (completely misstate what the person said) is a pretty tired strawman trick, thought you were above that. Guess not. Shame as we've had great discussions on here respectfully in the past.

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Politico Phil's avatar

OK, I'll back up and apologize. I assumed too much. To the point, how does "species adaptation" refute my statement here: "The worst part of your statement is that "It has nothing to do with denying Scripture." It has everything to do with Scripture. God created all mankind in Adam and Eve. Unless you deny that, God's Word tells us that we are all from the SAME PARENTS or the same gene pool. One cannot say we are different races without subverting language and logical thought."

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Fla Mom's avatar

Nor did I ever say this about Darwinian evolution, citing Ken Ham's explanation of 'kind' in the Ark story.

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Dawn B's avatar

Here is something to consider, Biblically, and something I wonder about.

Why did God tell the Israelites in the early OT not to mix with others and many times were told to destroy everything and take nothing? Was it to protect them from evil, meaning all they had was defiled? Was it only for religeous reasons? Couldn't they just believe in God and denounce other gods?

God would leave the flock for just one if it could be saved which means none could be saved. Sodom & Gomorrah is another example as Abraham could not find ONE righteous person. God already knew.

Also, since there were giants created by the fallen angels having relations with women, did the giants have offspring?

I believe the Book of Enoch goes into more detail but Jude 1:4-6 speaks of ungody people designated to pervert and deny God's grace. Are they devil's seed or did God already know their choices to predestine them?

4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved[c] a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—

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Bryan Dair's avatar

Exactly right.

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Politico Phil's avatar

Define race for me. Should be easy.

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Bryan Dair's avatar

'any one of the groups that humans are often divided into based on physical traits regarded as common among people of shared ancestry'.

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Politico Phil's avatar

Then you are using a phony definition of race.

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Bryan Dair's avatar

I think you are conflating race with species.

There are many races within our species.

Obviously, a Pygmy in Cameroon does not share

a race with Scandinavian Norse peoples.

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Concerned mom's avatar

Perhaps all we need to know is that it was God who ultimately separated us for His own reasons (at the tower of Babel, by language) and again, "when the Most High assigned lands to the nations, when he divided up the human race, he established the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the sons of Israel" Deut 32:8 AND we see that He will bring us back together again. "of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues" a few times (Rev 5:9, 7:9}

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Jeff C's avatar

Phil - I disagree with you here, though it may be a matter of semantics. Perhaps race is not the correct terminology, maybe a better one is tribes (though that is not quite right either).

Like you, I believe we all came from a common parents as the Bible plainly states. I reject evolution as an explanation of how we came to be, however it is eminently clear *adaptation* takes place. Adaptation is when an organism changes over short timescales to be more suited to it's environment. We see obvious signs of adaptation all around us, Darwin's finches being the classic example. While Darwin was wrong in his overall conclusions (evolution), his observations regarding adaptation are clearly true.

Human groups were isolated from each other for tens of thousands of years (or longer) before long-distance travel became commonplace. These groups adapted differently; physically attributes, intelligence types, emotional development, and spiritually. Though we are all humans and children of God, we have different GENERAL characteristics. Not completely different as there is large overlap, but the averages are different in quantifiable measures.

This wasn't invented by Marxists but is obviously true to anyone who cares to look. The Marxists haven't created "race" (or tribes or whatever you want to call it) but have used it as a cudgel to turn people against each other. For example, Whites are to blame for the failures of Blacks while the differences between the "races" are ignored. Then at the same time, they also say race is irrelevant and that any shortcoming by an ethnic group can only be explained by discrimination. They do this while pretending obvious counter-example such as Black dominance in the NBA and the NFL don't exist (which points to different physical attributes between races).

I really respect your opinion Phil but I think you have this one exactly backwards. Marxists didn't invent race, it's been around since human groups separated after the fall. What they invented was using it as tool of manipulation and guilt.

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Politico Phil's avatar

I agree and thank you for a more incisive examination of human traits. A false construct of the concept of race has been a lie of Satan for thousands of years to divide us and pit us against each other. It is obviously a difficult contortion of reality to deal with semantically as a result. As I said at the beginning, this is all about defining our terms properly. The variability of the human race is no excuse for pitting us against each other as alien enemies strictly on the basis of physical differences.

As an aside, I would argue that our differences aren't so much an "evolutionary adaptation" as it is simply genetic differences being reinforced through the homogeneity maintained within certain populations.

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daverkb's avatar

1) The insanity of Woke is their contradictory Woke assertion that number one (1) we are all alike, and (2) we are all different ... and all at the same ... and according to whatever 'agenda' and/or 'narrative' is being pushed in any given instance.

2) The other observation is that people seem to understand what grouping they are in ... and without having to be tutored in what or who they are. They by evidences seen just know automatically. They manifestly self-identify. Chinese people, for example, never mistake themselves for Africans; and Africans don't think that they are Chinese. And it does little good to argue over labels, because people know who they are and what broad category they belong to ... label or no label.

3) The Left many years ago, in an early rush to proto-inclusiveness were ever so fond of pointing out that the genetic difference between apes and chimps (etc.) and Man was only two some percent in genetic make-up. We were suppose to oo and ah over this great discovery of fact in some pseudo-fit of brotherhood, solidarity, equality ... or whatever. However, the more astute among us could equally and more properly state with absolute certainty that 'little differences make for big differences'. And just something to think about.

4) I note Fla Mom quite is quite correct as to practical observations in medicine. And in general, I overall quite concur with the general drift of Fla Mom's comment. Furthermore, bio-weapon engineers well understand that we are all not the same, otherwise they could not design weapons for group selectivity. And these same people seem to understand that little differences has large scale, over-arching significance.

5) No ... Marxists did not make up race. The have merely appropriated what the foot traffic says observably exists, twisted it around, and appropriated it unto their own warped purposes, with divide and conquer being one of them.

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Politico Phil's avatar

Thank you for bringing some clarity to this conversation.

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daverkb's avatar

This is one of the most difficult topics to speak on because people have been so long propagandized out of their gourds, and thus losing the ability to either think or believe what they see with their own eyes.

And in many ways, this topic is similar to C19 blindness where people could not see the idiocy of the most simple of things, like wearing the mask from the restaurant door to the table, taking it off while eating ... and then put the mask back on from the table to the exist the restaurant. Go figure!

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Politico Phil's avatar

When I was involved in formal debate in college, the first thing we had to get straight before even engaging in a moderated debate was getting our terms clearly defined. We had to be taught to be precise in our definitions and our use of language or the debate would veer away from the issues to a mish-mash of rhetoric that went nowhere. Today, this is a huge challenge.

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daverkb's avatar

Excellent point. In American, nothing is defined. Just be for this or that. It's the science. It is global warming. Nothing defined, no real history. And above all, no Godly moral order.

Well now! We will see come Vote day to President Installation Day.

And let's see. The Russians would be real smart to deliver Good-Bye Biden and the Cackling Animal Cracker a real disaster to sum of their incompetent Reign of Disasters. And Tulsi, God love here. She has a real heart.

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Politico Phil's avatar

I have always loved and respected Tulsi's stance and wondered how long she would be accepted in the Demoncratic Party.

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jmsmithmd's avatar

Hope and change…

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Leo's avatar

If seeking clarity, absolutes and generalizations such as "...nothing is defined..." aren't helpful.

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Politico Phil's avatar

He is pointing out what is taking place. Not defining what is actually happening is one of the biggest problems today.

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Leo's avatar

"Nothing" is an absolute. All inclusive. Everything/everywhere no exceptions, regardless to how is it applied - "taking place" or "defining."

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daverkb's avatar

Man cannot live without absolutes and generalizations without descending wholesale into chaos. Also, it may pointed out that all systems of taxonomy rely upon generalizations as to groupings. And in general, all systems of categorization rely upon a generalized understanding as to pertinent likenesses and dissimilarities.

Man will argue and debate this until time comes to an end.

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daverkb's avatar

God is absolute. The Universe is an absolute in that either it absolutely exists or it does not.

And if one falls off a 17 story building, the cement below is absolute. I know because I once upon a time saw a woman roll herself over the side of a penthouse wall and I absolutely heard the thud.

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laura-ann Knox's avatar

Yes, AND.

race is a nicer way to say it than "breed", as in dogs. We all know that all dogs can interbreed, different breeds just have different morphological characteristics

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patrick.net/memes's avatar

And different personalities, or dog-onalities.

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Politico Phil's avatar

Simple, right?

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Dawn B's avatar

There are many mysteries we will just have to wonder about.

I wonder if there is a seed of satan. Could some be of fallen angel blood? They (elite, royalty) do keep their bloodline pure and do not mix with commoners. Something to ponder...

John 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

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Politico Phil's avatar

He was referring to people who align themselves with Satan's lies. Thus the father of lies. He is not saying they had sex with Satan.

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Dawn B's avatar

LOL funny but not funny...

My point was that there may be people that look like the human race but are something else.

Maybe I didn't read carefully and understand the comment initially...

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Matthew Witt's avatar

This topic gets spiky quickly. Regarding heritable traits, the evidence I am familiar with makes clear there is no marker for "race". We see "race". What our genes (and God) sees is remarkable consistency at the level of DNA. Evidence claiming significance regarding other differences that I have encountered suffer from serious logical flaws. This is to say nothing about the evidence for epigenetic adaptations, which pose other serious challenges to presumptions about fixed, heritable traits. What we have, overwhelmingly in common, is our capacity for adaptation. All other differences redound to variations on a theme, so many genetic alleles for this or that attribute like hair and eye color. All adaptations to environmental conditions, God only cares about so far as He cares equivalently for us all.

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Politico Phil's avatar

Oh my, thank you so much! You definitely have a superior background by which to explain this as compared to my feeble attempts. "Regarding heritable traits, the evidence I am familiar with makes clear there is no marker for "race". We see "race"."

I'm just going to leave it at that. That sums it all up. However, please feel free to elaborate.

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patrick.net/memes's avatar

Yes, exactly. To take the rainbow as an analogy: there are different colors, though the exact borders are fuzzy.

To claim there is no such thing as race is the same as declaring that there are no different colors in the rainbow in spite of how obvious they are.

I understand the sentiment of wanting human unity, but race is obviously real, and there are significant measurable and visible differences between the different races.

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Politico Phil's avatar

Again, define "race" for me. I am not advocating a sentiment. I am trying to point out reality and represent it semantically in an accurate manner. Not to nit-pick but the rainbow analogy really doesn't carry any water. If anything, it reinforces my statement that there is only one human race with lots of variability. What IS a race?

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GenEarly's avatar

"IF" We/Me/You are to continue to Survive in this Advancing Technological World there must be an Accompanying Advance in Mankind's Reality as well.

Realities Must Change. Can "We" Do it and Reach the Stars or Will We Devolve back into Times Past and Do it all over again & again & again ???

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Anita from Tucson - Now In MI's avatar

Those are people groups.

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Nikki (Gayle) Nicholson's avatar

Jeff C, in our world that is right on target. :-)

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A New DAY is DAWNING's avatar

True. Differences in phenotypes.....but... who and what precepts is the great equalizer?

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Jeff C's avatar

The great equalizer is that we are all children of God.

My statement was aimed at an observably false claim (no such thing as race) that is unicorn thinking. We don't improve things in life by wishing away reality and pretending demonstrably true facts aren't real. We accept reality and deal with it.

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Freebird's avatar

As always, great wisdom here. The key to this is to recognize the different races that God made and embrace our common humanity.

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Politico Phil's avatar

God "made" or created only one set of parents. He "made" no others. There is only one human race. We have to get these definitions straight. Just because all my children look and behave and sound differently does not mean they are all from different parents or are of different races.

Look...God created one race of people with a genetic woodpile so diverse and varied that there are ALL kinds of different looking "humans". Point is, WE ARE ALL HUMANS. And the varied combination of genetics is ONGOING. This is not a static reality that happened once. Our God-given gene pool is constantly combining to produce new and varied results that evil people want to use to divide us. This is important.

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Freebird's avatar

Phil, I would say that the development of different races from the one set of parents still supports the statement that God “created” different races, albeit through Divine Intent or will. He certainly built a diverse genetic code into those first parents, and apparently the resulting diversity was furthered by the very human characteristic of like being attracted to like. And one would guess that the differing races developed early in the history of mankind. By the time of Moses there was an Ethiopian race, from which his wife is said to have sprung.

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Politico Phil's avatar

Great rationalization but it doesn't hold up. You are mis-defining "race". Does that make them non-human or a lessor human or perhaps a superior human? Marxists and eugenicists would say yes. This was the whole basis for the willful extermination of the "Jewish race" by the "German" Nazis as...and I quote, "an inferior diseased race."

Here is the straight definition: there is only one Human Race. As it is written, so it shall be.

Your wife's background is from the Ethiopian culture which has similar cultural and genetic characteristics which I assume are different from yours. So what? Because you are both of the human race, I also assume you two have no problem breeding together. The term "race" is improperly used in your example.

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ThreeArchBay's avatar

Total hogwash, Phil.

You even get the WWII post victory jewish propaganda wrong. I bet you even believe in the "holocaust" hoax.

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Politico Phil's avatar

Enjoy your delusions.

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Fla Mom's avatar

If one believes that God guides all of history, then "All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being." John 1:3 Berean Literal

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Freebird's avatar

Great verse!

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ThreeArchBay's avatar

"God "made" or created only one set of parents."

LOL!! So who did Cain marry and have children with?

Aren't you being divisive by spouting a portion of your own mythology?

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Politico Phil's avatar

Their sisters dummy. Not hard to figure out.

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Bryan Dair's avatar

In Genesis 1, god makes man and woman at the same time. In Genisis 2 god, even though he could magically create all of the matter in the universe, ran out of materials and had to run to Lowes for a bag of topsoil from which to create a man. Then he had to steal a rib from man to use the stem cells to create a woman. Then man goes into woman a couple of times and they create two offspring. Then one of the offspring kills the other, so a third offspring magically appears. At this point, these are the only four people on the planet, supposedly. But magically the 'boys' go over the hill to the next town, wherever that came from, and found themselves some wives.

It all makes perfect sense.

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Politico Phil's avatar

Now that IS a magical reading.

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Bryan Dair's avatar

It is written.

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ThreeArchBay's avatar

Then why not recognize different "religions" (mythologies)??

Que the pompous "christians" bleating...

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Politico Phil's avatar

LOL...whoa, deflecting some? That's quite the diversion.

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ThreeArchBay's avatar

"Deflecting"... just what?

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GenEarly's avatar

"Change the Reality". We often Do This Via Wars, but Is that the Only Way???

Anyone reading my posts may think I Contradict myself, but Holding 2 Thoughts that "appear" to be Contradictary at the same time is possibly a path to a new Reality of recognizing The Many Realities on planet Earth. "How" to deal with them, other than eliminating those other Realities, is Evolutionary/Enlightment. "Ideas, not Battles, Mark the advancement of Mankind" LRH

For better or worse, We are all "married" to living or dying with each other on this planet at this time.

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CMCM's avatar

I've been reading all the previous comments (including yours) and I'm throwing in my 2 cents. Having lived, worked, and spent lots of time in various countries with various "races" in terms of skin color/melanin content, what I came to believe is that it's about the specific CULTURE each person comes from, the one to which they are exposed in their earliest, most formative years. Cultures can be unique to various countries historically, but within each country there are numerous subcultures, or "tribes" so to speak. This was certainly true in the very tribal Middle Eastern countries I worked in, countries in which your allegiance is to your own small "tribe" more than to the nation itself. I've known so many people whose melanin was very dark, yet culturally they were very much like me. I've known people as white as I am who are entirely foreign to me culturally (such as radical leftists). People unknowingly and sometimes consciously adopt a particular culture and its viewpoints. This has nothing to do with "race". A white American radical leftist could adopt a Kenyan infant from a Masai tribe and raise it to be just like any American white or black, with exposure to all the same radical values and attitudes of his adoptive parents. To paraphrase Bill Clinton's comments about the economy, "It's the culture, stupid!" Having spent so much time in foreign cultures, this is certainly the viewpoint that evolved with my personal experience. As a college teacher in a Saudi Arabian university, I had a few students who had lived in the West for long periods of time and who held many sophisticated Western views, yet.....there would be so many instances in which I clearly saw their Saudi culture dominate various things. Their birth culture and the one to which they were initially exposed took precedence. In Saudi Arabia there was a great range of "races" and degrees of skin color. Many of their attitudes were strongly influenced by the Muslim religion and rigid culture that goes along with it, and the race of the various people had nothing to do with any of this.

I think this is why I feel so irritated at the constant idiocy pushed by the left about race-race-race.

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Politico Phil's avatar

Your personal experience has given you insight that most Americans do not understand, much less actually experience. Race is such a false construct without any basis in reality. Whereas, the Marxism of the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia was based on "class warfare", the Marxism of today's America is based on "race warfare". It is a lie and a complete manipulation. I just get frustrated that Christians who *should* know better are just as taken in as the rest.

Anyway, thanks for your comment. Much appreciated.

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Fla Mom's avatar

New Day, and aren't those phenotypes expressions of genotypes?

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Doug's avatar

spam again

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Freebird's avatar

Any time I see a link without an explanation of it, I assume it’s spam. We’ve been seeing a lot of them here lately. I’ve had a couple of those in reply to my comments.

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Juju's avatar

Yeah always a lower case 3-4 letter name.

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Doug's avatar

Yes, and it's the same scare-mongering paranoia (warranted or not) about covid added to our food or something along those lines. I can only freak out for a certain percentage of my day... I don't need additional paranoia. I need solutions.

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Kathleen Janoski's avatar

To be sure...click on the name.

You will see the same post multiple times.

I reported it.

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ThreeArchBay's avatar

Ahole SPAMMER BLOCKED

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Kathleen Janoski's avatar

Do not click on link.

Spam bot malware.

Reported.

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